KÖTHEN, Germany — In a quiet and somewhat-dated restaurant in the eastern German countryside, an animated Daniel Roi is trying to explain an earthquake.
日志
Germany reunified 30 years how different are East and Eest 东西德人民共享愉快吗 ...
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German reunification 25 years on: how different are east and west really
Official research reports the difference between the East Germans and the West Germans
Translated from an 2018 article in Mandarin The Berlin Wall has been pushed down for 30 years. Can the East and West Germans really play together happily. http://www.wailaike.net/news-2500042-0.html
An official research report that: in the eyes of West Germans, the East Germans are narrow-minded or parochialism, Modesty, propriety, meekly accept humiliations, meekly submit to oppression. East Germans evaluate West Germans as arrogance, self-righteous, unreliable, untrustworthy.
The per capita GDP of East Germany is 73.2% of West Germany. There are many large enterprises in West Germany, and there are few in East Germany.
Way of thinking in East and West Germany, Eastern and Western way of thinking?
German TV 2 once conducted a social survey at time of 25th year of reunification, setting up several experiments on the thinking habits of East and West Germany:
Experiment 1: In the two cities of East and West Germany, stalls sell sausages, at the original price, only half a sausage can be bought, to test the response of the customers .
Result: The customers of West Germany immediately questioned the black heart of the stall owner. Are you kidding, return my money, I don't buy it, you didn't tell me that I only can get half of the sausages in advance, you are in deceiving. But, the reaction of the East German customers is exactly in the opposite, though, at first glance, they are also awkward, but they can patiently listen to the explanation of the stall owner, the rise in raw material prices, etc; finally, they accepted this unreasonable price.
Analysis: West Germans are influenced by Western "critical thinking" and tend to question and protest. Therefore, when they are treated unfairly, they will fight back. The East Germans are long stayed in the social environment of order and obedient. When the government instructs them to go east, they dare not go west. The past experience was that whoever objectionable will be unlucky. The obedience in the East way, let them choose to shut up.
Experiment 2: Anchored the car on the side of the country road in East Germany and West Germany, and test if there drivers can stop to help.
Result: Within an hour, only 3 vehicles stopped in West Germany, and asked with concern; however, in East Germany, there 7 vehicles stopped and even there were drivers initiatively to help to repair.
Analysis: The selfishness of the West Germans is due to the fact that they have experienced fierce competition in the market economy and formed the instinct of self-protection. In contrast, due to the East Germans have experienced difficult period of the planned economy. they forned collectivist consciousness that everyone will help oneself and oneself will help others.
Experiment 3: Several people played as refugees and sought for free accommodation from pedestrians in the towns of East Germany and West Germany.
Result: In West Germany, someone immediately responded, giving cash, and even proposed to take them home for settling down. In East Germany, there were many people who ignored the requests of the refugees, and even there were few responded, also was not locals.
Analysis: The West German society is more tolerant, the degree of integration of various ethnic groups was high, there was no xenophobia, and good at English communication. In East Germany, because of the previous Western economic blockade, people were only care about their own affairs, the acceptance for foreign things and outsiders was low, and oral English was not good, so made an impression of narrow-minded.
There were many schools in East Germany and the quality of education was good. In the 2012 PISA test, in East Germany, four of the five state schools were in top-notch, and in West Germany was only one stste school of Bayern.
How fall of the Berlin Wall paved way for Germany's populists
By Alexander Smith and Andy Eckardt NBC News
With his imposing frame, trimmed beard and blue blazer, the 30-year-old is part of a far-right, populist uprising that has left his country's political elite in disarray and wounded its once all-powerful leader, Angela Merkel.
Many of Roi's concerns echo those of the supporters of President Donald Trump. Fears about Muslims, immigrants and their perceived impact on jobs and national identity are common topics of conversation in this part of the world.
Roi is a local lawmaker for Alternative for Germany, or AfD, a political party described by the World Jewish Congress as "a disgraceful reactionary movement which recalls the worst of Germany's past" after it won more than 5.8 million votes in a general election last autumn.
For AfD members like Roi, its support is at least partly driven by lingering resentment from the reunification of East and West Germany after the Berlin Wall fell nearly 30 years ago. On Monday, the Cold War barrier will have been down for longer than it was up.
"Here in the east, we are being taken for fools, and that is one of the reasons why the discontent is so big," Roi says, leaning forward in his chair, raising his voice and jabbing his hand to emphasize each syllable. "This is exactly what the people here in the east have realized."
The AfD was only formed in 2013, but it captured 12.6 percent of the vote and 94 seats in Parliament in September's election.
Standing on a contentious anti-Muslim, anti-immigration platform, the party has been accused of making far-right, extremist statements and even spreading rhetoric that harks back to the Nazis — something most members deny.
This mainstream stigma did little to prevent the AfD's tear through Germany's political landscape.
The most significant casualty was the Christian Democratic Union, the center-right party led by Merkel. Having hemorrhaged votes, the CDU is still struggling to negotiate a coalition government with the left-leaning Social Democratic Party, or SPD, four months after the election.
Once venerated as the world's most powerful woman, the chancellor has been severely weakened, and some political commentators predict she will struggle to survive another term.
"The general perception is that with the weak showing of the conservatives at the general election, she's damaged goods," according to Thomas Walde, a political analyst with NBC News' German broadcast partner, ZDF.
'The AfD gave people a chance to be heard'
The AfD plundered votes across Germany, but its stronghold was undoubtedly in the east; in the state of Saxony it received 27 percent of the vote, and in neighboring Saxony-Anhalt 19 percent.
While it would be overly simplistic to put the party's support in these areas down to any one factor, many people came back to the same point when NBC News took a trip through the former East Germany last month.
A vote for the AfD, they said, was a chance to vent the long-simmering resentment felt by many former Easterners who still feel "left behind" in comparison to their Western neighbors. Apart from the thriving cultural hub of Berlin, the five other states that made up the East are still the poorest in Germany, despite years of investment and growth since reunification in 1990.
Two-thirds of all Germans still see persistent divisions between the East and West, according to a survey by the pollster INSA for the newspaper Bild in October. It also found this feeling was particularly strong among people in the former East, with three-quarters reporting they felt an "invisible barrier" between themselves and countrymen from what was once the other side of the Iron Curtain.
At the heart of this issue are places like Bitterfeld-Wolfen, a small industrial city with chemical pipelines zig-zagging over the highway and imposing, communist-era "plattenbau" — or "slab building" — housing blocks in its outskirts.
The city's post-reunification economy is steadily growing and it has relatively low numbers of migrants and refugees compared with the rest of Germany.
While it was once the most polluted city in the East, Bitterfeld-Wolfen is now home to a far cleaner manufacturing zone that makes everything from solar panels and aspirin to the windows for the world's tallest building, Dubai’s Burj Khalifa. Its former coal mine was flooded to create a lake featuring a promenade and a marina, both local tourist attractions.
Yet residents say they aren't experiencing these benefits. Local unemployment is at 8.2 percent — higher than the national rate of 5.8 percent — and many say they still feel outpaced by the more affluent areas of western Germany, where many young families have moved, seeking jobs and a better life.
News stories about foreigners coming to Germany make them worry about the secondary effects on their own population, which has dropped to around 40,000 from a peak of 76,000 in 1989. The average age is now 49 and rising.
On a drizzly Monday afternoon, the streets are eerily quiet here and it seems many windows are either shuttered or devoid of any discernible sign of life.
Angelika Winter, 65, didn't vote for the AfD but she says she can understand why people in her hometown found its straight-talking, anti-establishment stance appealing.
"After so many years we still feel that we are trailing behind in the East," she says in a cafe on the city's outskirts. "There is a difference between East and West, and we feel that we are second-class citizens."
After reunification, Winter lost her job in the East German film industry. Although she has found work as a public servant with the local government, she still feels a sense of bitterness toward Germany's present-day political establishment.
"The AfD gave people a chance to be heard, and it shook the other mainstream parties," she says between sips of her cappuccino. "In my opinion the politicians have lost connection to the people, and that is also one of the reasons for our frustration."
Germany is subject to many of the same divisions that have given rise to populist movements lifting Trump in the U.S. and Brexit in the U.K. — young against old, educated against unschooled, urban against rural.
These multilayered factors are "extremely pronounced in eastern Germany" because the people here have already experienced so much drastic change in their lives, says Frank Richter, a theologian and activist in Dresden, the capital of Saxony — the state where the AfD won most of its support.
This disaffection has proved fertile ground for the AfD.
"Many people felt overwhelmed," Richter says. "The populists play this tune terrifically."
Communism vs. capitalism
Understanding this division requires seeing reunification from an East German perspective.
Americans tend to recall East Germany as a brutally repressive, communist regime allied with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. German reunification is almost always seen as a positive thing.
But the feeling is not so universal in the former East.
Most people here initially supported reunification, and it's certainly true the merger brought democracy, liberty and, in most parts, economic growth.
But today many Easterners can't help but feel they were merely absorbed by their more wealthy, Western neighbors, rather than joining as equal partners.
"It was executed with such speed and radicalness, that the people in the East only understood gradually what was happening to them," Richter says, speaking in his office overlooking the spires, domes and cobbled streets of Dresden's baroque old town, which was heavily bombed during World War II and rebuilt at great expense after reunification.
There was a sense that Eastern officials were replaced by Westerners who were deemed to know better, and many felt that the community spirit that had fostered under communism had quickly evaporated under capitalism.
"The social cohesion from East Germany, most people here actually miss that feeling," according to 47-year-old Ingo Wobst, a Dresden resident who has seen many friends switch from the center-left SPD to the AfD.
"After the fall of the wall, life in the countryside was pulsating, but then a lot of things collapsed," he says, sitting in a cafe across town in Dresden's trendy, graffiti-daubed Neustadt neighborhood. "Many people lost their jobs, and today you find small towns out here where there is no supermarket, no doctor and not even a bus stop."
The city of Dresden itself is actually flourishing, emerging as a rival tourist destination to nearby Leipzig or even Berlin. In recent years it's become known as the home of another far-right group, PEGIDA — for Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West — which attracted 25,000 people to a demonstration in early 2015.
But many of the marchers were not from Dresden but from the surrounding towns and villages, according to Richter. The AfD has found most traction in such rural areas, which are emptying out because of "brain drain" — the emigration of educated and trained people — and low birth rates. If East Germany were still a country, it would have the oldest population in Europe.
"In a big city you have more work and the young people come here because of it," says Victoria Prokudin, a 20-year-old trainee lawyer who moved to Dresden from the surrounding countryside.
Even those who feel little nostalgia for communism balk at the idea that Germany is universally happy now that it's a single country.
Later that night, around 30 minutes' drive west of Bitterfeld-Wolfen, Roi gathered with AfD compatriots in the small town of Köthen.
Around half a dozen sympathizers and supporters were clustered in the unlikely setting of a restaurant called Schwarzes Ross, meaning Black Steed.
A large painting of a horse dominates the back wall, accompanied by horse-themed clocks, ornamental plates and coasters — decorations that seem a bit macabre given that horse meat is on the menu.
One common complaint at the meeting is that Germany's mainstream parties are so similar they present a new form of tyranny. If this sounds familiar, it mirrors the Trump supporters who claimed there was little difference between the centrism of Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush.
Merkel was born in West Germany but she spent her childhood in the East. However, her message failed to resonate with populist opponents.
"We were permanently being lied to in East Germany," says Volker Olenicak, 51, another AfD politician and local businessman. "And it is similar today again."
The party has also found success in telling Germans that they should be allowed to be proud of their country, something they claim has been taboo since the war.
"That is one of the reasons why I joined the AfD," interjects Roi, while sitting next to Olenicak. "There was no longer a culture of discussion. You were no longer allowed to question things."
Open-door policy
No one here suggests that the East-West issue is the only factor at play.
If resentment over reunification had been simmering for 25 years, it boiled over in 2015 when Merkel decided to open Germany's doors to refugees.
"The AfD wouldn't be where they are today without the refugees and without the mistakes that were made, clearly," according to Walde, the ZDF analyst.
Merkel's "open-door policy" split the country, with some praising their leader's benevolent internationalism and others cursing the prospect of incoming refugees, who they claimed were a strain on the country's economy and a risk to security.
Resentment appeared to deepen when gangs of men, some of them asylum-seekers, sexually assaulted women who were out celebrating in Cologne on New Year's Eve later that year.
Germany is similar to other countries in that the areas with the fewest migrants are often the most opposed to them. In Dresden, for example, just 10.6 percent of the population has what the city calls "a migration background" and only 6.76 percent are foreigners — both lower than the national average.
But people here are more wary of the prospect of incomers because of the region's particular history, according to Richter. In the 1800s it was a historic, secular kingdom, and spent most of the next century as an ethnically homogeneous dictatorship under the Nazis and then the Communists.
"We are not in Western Europe here," he says. "We are not in a place that is used to liberality, plurality and diversity."
The AfD was initially formed as a campaign against Europe's single currency, the euro, but it only gained mainstream success after switching its focus to immigration.
"I have a daughter and I don't want her to wear a niqab," says Jennifer Zerrenner, 50, who switched to the AfD from the far-left Die Linke party. "It hasn't happened in this town yet, but I think we should save the people here from too much immigration. I look to Cologne or Bonn or London, for example, and I say, 'No, we don't need so many people here from abroad.'"
Not everyone here is so suspicious.
Back in Bitterfeld-Wolfen, Maik Sieblist, 46, a hotel manager, is cooperating with a government program to employ an Afghan refugee in the kitchen of his Deutsches Haus — or "German House." He vehemently opposes the AfD and has a generally positive view of foreigners and his hometown.
"I cannot understand why the people always want to change things," he says, leaning over a wooden counter in his hotel, which was built in 1913. "Mrs. Merkel is actually not doing such a bad job and is questionable whether we will find a better candidate."
Merkel and fellow lawmakers are now left to try to rebuild something from the rubble of their political establishment.
"That election really changed the political architecture," Niels Annen, an SPD lawmaker, says in an interview in his modern, airy office looking out over the Berlin skyline.
"It's clear for me that in that election we all underestimated the aspect of immigration," he says, adding that "there is more a cultural aspect from the history of how the unification was implemented."
With such deep, emotional scars going back decades, the politicians' task may be easier said than done.
As Armin Schenk, the mayor of Bitterfeld-Wolfen, put it: "You cannot argue against feelings. You can argue against facts, but not against feelings."
柏林墙倒近三十载 两德真能一起愉快地玩耍吗？
2018-07-27 来源：华闻派
http://www.wailaike.net/news-2500042-0.html
德国一条新闻称，“统一近30年，东西德工资和劳动力成本依旧差距明显”。据最近联邦统计局公布的2016年的数据显示：东西德之间的总体工资仍然显示出23.5％的差异。而居住在德国的人，对东西德之间的差异性又有哪些体会？华闻君邀请海叨叨谈谈她对两德的见解，她能把所有枯燥的数据，说得妙趣横生。
作者海叨叨，是一个野阿姨。原本在英国四年了，因为一段姻缘去了德国。学过电影拍过片，算个前媒体人，现如今以字谋生，自由懒散。好奇和敏感与之相生相伴，追逐有趣和荒诞。
如果地球是个村，德国就是村里的“是非精”。然后被几个有魄力的村民组织起来的同盟给办了，分分钟教做人。没想到这个塑料花同盟内部打着各自的算盘，教做人的方式也不一样，生生地把德国弄成了精分。
东西德在1990年再次合体，可是精分的后遗症仍在。
官方调研报告显示，西德人眼中的东德人“狭隘”、“谦虚本分”、“逆来顺受”；东德人评价西德人“傲慢”、“自以为是”、“靠不住”。两德性格如此迥异，还能愉快地玩耍吗？
西富东穷，谁来背锅？“经济基础决定上层建筑”，用我们文科生做题惯用的套辞来解释，就是以美国爸爸为首的西方阵营对西德是“扶植”导向：给钱、给物资，养得白白胖胖的。“马歇尔计划”帮助复兴、实施的是市场经济。而前苏联爸爸领头的东方阵营就不厚道了，东德的工业设备能拆就拆拿来做战败赔偿，实施的是计划经济，由政府把控着国民的一切：工作、自由、物资分配。
统一后的德国，东西两家经济实力摊开一比，真的是人比人气死人。小到家用洗碗机的拥有率，大到实力企业的覆盖率，东德总是矮人一头。去年的政府报告中，东德的人均GDP为西德的73.2%，被誉为欧洲股市风向标的德国DAX指数中竟没有一家东德的企业。
西德大企业扎堆，东德寥寥无几
既然成了一家人，穷亲戚自然是要接济的，在西德工作的个人和法人收入达到一定标准时都要交一项税率为5.5%“团结税”，用以贴补和支持东德。然而官方的问卷调查显示，80%的公民觉得此税已经没有必要存在了。也是，都猴年马月了还得管家里要钱，让人看了笑话。
东西德思维方式≈东西方思维方式？
德国电视二台曾经在统一25年之际做过一个社会调查片，就东西德的思维习惯设置了几个有趣的小实验：
实验一：在东西德两个城市分别摆摊卖香肠，但是用原价只能买半根香肠，看顾客反应。
结果：西德的顾客立马质疑摊主黑心，“开玩笑呢吧，还钱，不买了”、“没写着半根啊，蒙谁呢”；东德的顾客恰恰相反，虽然乍一听也是一脸懵逼，但是能耐心听摊主解释原料涨价等这那的原因，最后欣然接受这个不合理的设定。
分析：西德受西方阵营“批判性思维”的影响，能怼天怼地、质疑抗议，所以一受到不公平待遇就会反击。而东德人半辈子都在守秩序、听话，政府指东不敢往西。过往的经验是，谁要是提出异议，倒霉的就是谁。东方式的“服从”思维让他们选择了闭嘴。
实验二：在东西德的乡间路边抛锚，看哪边的过往司机会停下施以援手。
结果：一个小时内，在西德只有3辆车停下关心问一句；在东德有7辆，还有司机主动帮忙维修。
分析：西德人的“自私”是市场经济激烈竞争下“自保”性的本能反应；反观东德人由于经历了那段计划经济的困难时期，养成了”人人为我，我为人人”的集体主义意识。
实验三：找几个人扮演难民，在东西德的小镇上向路人寻求免费住宿。
结果：在西德马上有人回应，送现金甚至提出带他们回家安顿；而东德不理睬的人居多，少数有反应的还不是本地人。
分析： 西德社会更包容，各种族融合程度高，没啥排外情绪，且英语普及、交流无碍。东德由于之前受到西方经济封锁，只顾着自己的一亩三分地，对于外来事物和外来人群的接受度不高，英语也不怎么样，所以给人以狭隘的印象。
“傻叉东德佬！” -“傻叉西德佬！” -“傻叉政府！”
学校多、房价低，东德也有加分项“妇女能顶半边天”这个熟悉的说法大概是东方阵营里的社宣通稿。两德时期，东德政府鼓励妇女工作，而西德妇女则趋向在家带孩子。既然妈妈要上班，孩子谁管呢？这就是为啥原东德地区的托儿所要比西德的多出不少的原因。
再者，统一后东德的年轻人一窝蜂地往西边挤。僧多庙少，房价上去了，学校挤不进。所以西德的妇女在怀孕的时候就得给未来宝宝排队报名上幼儿园。
东德不仅学校多，教育质量也是杠杠的。2012年的PISA测试（国际学生能力评估）中，东德五州中有四个州学校的成绩都是拔尖的，能与之比肩的只有西德的拜仁州。
究其原因还得感谢前苏联——重视数学和科学教育。
房价，西德经济好自然啥都贵。因此, 有在“西德赚了钱，举家回迁东德买房定居”的现象。
看着现在的德国，我会畅想一下朝鲜半岛，同属“本是同根生，奈何站错队”的范例。这要是哪天不小心见证历史了，后续应该会更精彩。
German reunification 25 years on:
how different are east and west really
hen East and West Germany reunited 25 years ago this weekend, the country was drunk on euphoria and a sense of heightened optimism. While reigning chancellor Helmut Kohl promised “flourishing landscapes”, his predecessor Willy Brandt produced the now legendary sentence: “What belongs together, will grow together”. But how united is Germany a generation on?
The Berlin Institute for Population and Development concluded in a recent study that half of all Germans believe there are more differences between “Ossis” (easterners) and “Wessis” (westerners) than commonalities.
The report, titled How reunification is going – how far a once-divided Germany has grown together again, found there is now little to distinguish life in the east and west in many regards, but there are still huge differences.
The fact that it was possible to bring the two systems together “is a miracle for which it is hard to find a historical equivalent,” said the institute’s director, Reiner Klingholz.
“There is no example of merging two states with such vastly different political systems that has worked so smoothly. But this reunification was, and continues to be, far more difficult to achieve than was thought during the exuberance of the reunification celebrations.
“Even if the two parts were only separated for 41 years – that’s less than two generations – the citizens of east and west were socialised in such a different way that in retrospect the idea that integration would be swift was utopian.”
Klingholz estimates that it will take at least another generation before the two parts have truly grown back together. One major piece of evidence for that, he says, is that “many Wessis have never even been to the east,” while most Ossis have been to the west.
Here is how they compare on key indicators:
Wealth
States in the former west continue to be considerably richer than those in the former east, where ordinary households own far less than half of the wealth accumulated by those in the west.
Of the 500 richest Germans, only 21 are in the east and, of those, 14 are in Berlin. Of the 20 most prosperous cities, only one – Jena – is in the east.
There are many reasons for the differences, including the fact that wages in the east continue to be lower – at €2,800 (£2,075) a month, people earn about two-thirds of the average wage in the west – and that property in the east is only worth half as much in the west.
Another factor is that while Kohl declared wages and pensions should be translated one to one into West Marks in 1990, savings were only translated at a rate of two East Marks to one West Mark. On top of that, as owning property was generally taboo in East Germany, families have less to pass on to their children.
The net wealth of the average westerner is about €153,200 per person. In eastern households it is not even half that. Indeed, east Germans with net assets of at least €110,000 are considered to belong to the richest 10% of adults; in the west, €240,000 is the minimum.
As cars are the most conspicuous indication of a German’s wealth, it is worth noting that a west German is twice as likely to drive a BMW, with an East German twice as likely to drive a Skoda.
Poverty and health
The risk of an east German slipping into poverty is about 25% higher than that of a west German. However, life expectancy has risen considerably in the east since reunification, with women now on a par with their western counterparts. For men, it is slightly lower in the former east.
In terms of health, the concerns are similar, with obesity having increased in the east from between 12%-16% in 1999 to an average of 18% in 2013, and in the west from less than 10%-12% in 1999 to between 14% and 18% in 2013.
Productivity
Productivity in the former east was 70% of that in the west in 1991 and rose to just 73% in 2012, in part a legacy of the number of factories that were bought by west German industrialists and deliberately run into the ground to scotch competition as well as the inefficiency of many companies in the east.
None of the 30 largest companies listed on the German stock market are based in the east. Experts say the fact that most of the large industry and production bases are in the west and that those in the east are far smaller – with most employers in agriculture or service industries like meat-processing and call centres – will have a long-term effect of increasingly holding back the economy in the east and ensuring that the wage discrepancy remains and likely worsens.
Women
In east Germany, more women work (75%) than in the west, (70%), a legacy of a socialist system in which women were encouraged to work and which boasted full employment. In reality, it meant women were pressurised to run a household as well as work full time, a fact that was rarely acknowledged.
As a result, childcare facilities in the east are far superior to those in the west, where every fourth child under three is in a nursery; in the east, it is more than half.
In 1994, polls showed that almost 70% of west German women said children under school age suffered when their mothers worked. Their attitude is now more in line with that of east German women (for whom working and bringing up children has long been the norm), with only 30% of Wessi women now holding that opinion.
East German mothers return to work after childbirth much earlier than their west German counterparts and are more inclined to work full-time. Even part-time working mothers in the east work on average six hours longer than those in the west.
Partnerships
While long-term relationships between Ossis and Wessis were once highly unusual, they now account for about 10% of all partnerships, as likely as a relationship between a German and an immigrant, experts say. Most common is a partnership made up of women from the east and men from the west. Experts have suggested that this is because women prioritise status and wealth when looking for a partner. East-west partnerships are often referred to as “Wossis”.
Voluntary sector
While 37% of west Germans are involved in some sort of voluntary activity – from the fire brigade to church charities – only 30% of east Germans are. Analysts say this is a legacy of the East German state obliging its citizens to carry out supposedly voluntary activities, thereby giving it a negative connotation, and that civil society is still less developed in the former east.
Consumption
Consumer goods were one of the most immediate attractions for east Germans when the Berlin Wall fell, with Levi jeans, Milka chocolate bars and video recorders initially being the most popular goods.
There are few products from the East German era that have made it on to the supermarket shelves of the united Germany. However, Rotkäppchen Sekt, or Red-Riding Hood sparkling wine, Spee washing powder, Radeberger Pilsner and Bautz’ner mustard are among the exceptions and are steadily winning a growing market share among west Germans, with sales increasing in that sector from 34% to 42% between 2007 and 2014.
Preference for particular regional products – from beer to chocolate spreads, cola brands, yoghurts and newspapers – are still often reliable indicators of someone’s origins. Otherwise, consumer habits between east and west Germans are generally similar, even though easterners spend 79% less on consumer goods.
East Germans eat more preserved foods, while west Germans eat more fish and are more likely to fry their food.
Ossis and Wessis spend similar amounts on telecommunications, telephones and television sets. West Germans are likely to spend considerably more on jewellery and watches and are more likely to own a dishwasher, while east Germans tend to spend more on their gardens.
Migration
There are more migrants in west Germany. In the east, migrants make up 4%-9% of the population, while in many parts of the west the figure is about 25%. Despite the large discrepancy, experts say the aversion to migrants in the east is particularly pronounced – largely due to the lack of experience of living with foreigners.
Education
Here the east clearly has the advantage. Comparisons between the 16 German states show that – apart from the southern state of Bavaria – east German states are at the top of the scale.
They perform best in maths, natural sciences, biology, chemistry and physics. Some experts say this is a legacy of the robust education system of the GDR; others believe it is due to having fewer immigrants in east German schools as well as the amount of money that has been invested in the system since 1990.
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Experts have suggested that this is because women prioritise status and wealth when looking for a partner.
Nice to see that women are the same everywhere. ;)
I know! I was amazed that the Guardian allowed that little bit of reality into the article...
In east Germany, more women work (75%) than in the west, (70%)
Does 5% really qualify as much more? Seems a fairly trivial difference.
a legacy of a socialist system in which women were encouraged to work
Ahhhh, I see. We're meant to cheering the wonders of a socialist system so 5% is something to trumpet loudly.
reunification day on a Saturday is a bummer mind. No extra day off work and no grocery stores for two whole days. Lidl was mad packed like christmas.
And the Christmas stuff is in already! I nearly succumbed to buying an out-of-season Stollen, but my self-control prevailed.
What a pointless badly researched article. Stating the obvious it outlines the case that could be applied to any of the large EU member countries. How about a comparison on the above criteria of South of England v North of England, or South of Italy v North of Italy etc etc.
How are they the same? England's north and south were not divided by a wall, maintained by an authoritarian government. North and South Italy were different countries once upon a time, but Italians were free to travel back and forth, keep contact with each other.
Kudos to the Germans for coming so far in so short an amount of time. Clearly there's more to do, but really, it's a remarkable story.
How about a comparison on the above criteria of South of England v North of England,
This thought did cross my mind too as I was reading the article. It'd actually need to be South East England vs the rest of the UK, same as it generally should.
The UK/Germany parallel failed somewhat in the section on Education.
Anyway, to far important matters: what about the two different Sandmännchen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandm%C3%A4nnchen - how has that been resolved, and can you still get into big trouble for watching the "wrong" one and talking about it at school the next day?
I spent a lot of time not only in East Germany, but also Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary in the early 1990s, just after the Wall came down. The antiquated, unproductive, unsafe industrial base (food processors, packaging, chemicals and pharmaceuticals producers), the environmental catastrophe that surrounded most of the sites and the shoddy product were unbelievable. No wonder a lot of it has shut down.
Yours seems to have been a common experience. That is why I was so surprised that East German productivity has only risen from 70% to 73% of the West. Surely there should have been greater gains?
The antiquated, unproductive, unsafe industrial base (food processors, packaging, chemicals and pharmaceuticals producers), the environmental catastrophe that surrounded most of the sites and the shoddy product were unbelievable.
I saw that as well when I went east. And yet Corbyn went there and appears to have though it wonderful. The only way he could have formed that view is if he suffers from clinical depression.Barrel- scraper of the day!
What was wonderful came from going there on his motorbike with a lover.
strange using Bremen as a example of rich west. This is THE one city as "poor" as east german average.
Bremen poor? No, I lived there in the seventies and have visited since. It was not and still is not a poor city, compared with similar sized cities in the UK.
The comparison was with similar-sized cities in West Germany.
When I first visited Cologne in 1987, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
Bremen, a poor city? Looks like you have never been to Bremen/Schwachhausen, Parkallee along Bürgerpark, etc. Almost every house there looks like a castle.
West Germans are likely to spend considerably more on jewellery and watches and are more likely to own a dishwasher
'Progress', eh?
To see the schism healing, the darkness being lit over time. Amazing. Here's to no new wounds tearing Germany asunder.
*clears throat* *shuffles feet*
A well researched article about Germany. And no one in the photos wears a swastika at all.
Well done, Guardian? Who knew you had it in you!
Very disappointing to see the Grauniad pass up such a golden opportunity :(. Have complained.
Don't see how they will meet their monthly quota of Nazi stories now.
Intersting, never realised that German guardian readers think that the guardian mentions the Nazis so much.
Are you sure it's not just a British thing, I wonder what their agenda is?
It's definitely a British thing in general, but sadly the Graun is no better than any of its competitors in this regard, and often even worse.
And you don't even be German to get frustrated with the Nazi obsession, merely "non-Anglo"...
I'm German. We are the wealthiest, most powerful nation in Europe. Things are great right now.
Why didn't you mention how great we are at sport? Winning the World Cup is one of the most important things to happen in Germany since the wall came down.
Viva Germany. We are on top. And on the up, up, up.
Uh, you are not associating German + reunification + sport with "doping"?Why didn't you mention how great we are at sport?
Then I was living in New York City and American media sole talk was about how Reagan forced Gorbachev to tear down the wall : D : D frickin idiots
While the whole thing was vastly more complicated than one American politician making one speech, you can't honestly deny that that speech wasn't impactful, or that Reagan's foreign policy, vis-à-vis the USSR, didn't speed along German unification.
Americans may place too much importance on Reagan's part in the ending of the Cold War, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a large part in it.
Not exactly. Regan made a speech that said I "challenge" Gorbachev to tear down the wall. Meaning end the Cold War and help unite the word. Most Americans know that economy ended the Cold War not force. It's annoying to read statements like yours which are false.
I am probably a cynic but my guess is that this year's celebration is going to be muted.
It seems to take a while here in Germany for bad news to sink in. Up to just a week ago if anyone was to mention that Frau Merkel had lost the plot over 'come to mama' and its consequences, then you would have been laughed at.
How many thousand young migrants has just Berlin received in the last week? No one knows but you certainly see them around just waiting.
The atmosphere is no longer pleasant. It is getting cold now, both outside and in.
Have a look at this - from today's Der Spiegel.
no, nothing muted here in Frankfurt - sun shining, City prepped, everyone ready to welcome Mutti in town tomorrow - we are going to paartyyyy!
So you think all that enhanced police-training is to deal with street parties or potential civil unrest...? Actually, DS is right it is not longer pleasant in fact after 3 gang rapes in our area last week/weekend I would say that on occasion it feels quite scary! But if it makes you feel happier to bask in the sunshine under bunting and all that go for it - in a way you are perhaps right -
I was in Frankfurt railway station yesterday. Migrants hidden behind canvas walls with signs warning against taking photographs. Wouldn't want to spoil the party mood. Enjoy. It will be short-lived.
Is it necessary to emphasize the differences in Germany? We can also look to the bright side of life. We should be happy that there is no war like in other parts of the world. The world is more beautiful when people don't focus on the differences.
I was thinking more along the lines of "potholes big enough to swallow your car", which was the state of the roads 25 years ago.
Another difference is that here in Jena (and across the GDR I hear), we don't clap, we knock on our desks when someone finishes a presentation. Prioritization on gardens in the east is abundantly clear, it's like England here in comparison to the west.
Of the 20 most prosperous cities, only one – Jena – is in the east.
There are more migrants in west Germany. In the east, migrants make up 4%-9% of the population, while in many parts of the west the figure is about 25%.
And these things seem to go together because Jena is full of immigrants.
the aversion to migrants in the east is particularly pronounced – largely due to the lack of experience of living with foreigners
Don't worry, a few hundred thousand Syrians are about to give you a master class on how to live with foreigners. Enjoy!
I find that rather strange because the Vietnamese were invited in by the DDR..and lived in the east..and the West Germans have had the Turkish community since after WW1..and build BMW in Munich..so this whole..its all new to Germans is a load of sauerkraut [the happy kind]...
Yes you are right about the GDR having the Vietnamese. How many? Millions? No.
Hundreds of thousands? No. It was about 35,000 from what I have heard.West Germany has the Turks - measured in millions.
Outside of the large towns you will not see any obvious foreigner in East Germany.
Hearing you and others talk, I think I now understand you now. You have got used to migrants and assume we all should have them.
The East says No. Danke..
it is worth noting that a west German is twice as likely to drive a BMW, with an East German twice as likely to drive a Skoda.
What is this peice of snobbery supposed to mean. Skoda make perfectly excellent cars.
Since Skoda was one of the few cars you could actually buy in the DDR, their brand is much stronger there.
Good of them to mention excellent child care and education standards in the East even now after 25 years. Time to see the difference and take advantage of each system. The cold war win made more consumers. Not a surprise. Educated bright people are in the bottom of food chain in Germany - not a surprise. Are not they everywhere?
My late grandfather (born 1920), a staunch Social Democrat (and passive party member) always hoped for the two Germanys to reunite.
His master during the apprenticeship (he became a butcher and took his apprenticeship in the same butchery like my late grandmother) told his apprentices that they are fired if they are joining the NSDAP and/or Hitler Youth and my family not only went on a long path of being refugees and helped victims of the Nazis where- and however they could.
So nothing was more on his social mind then Germany learning from its mistakes - which he always thought it did - and reunite.
Sadly, he passed away in 1984 and missed Reunification by 5 years.
My late grandmother always reminded me to be proud for this historical achievement - regardless how many mistakes and sacrifices have been - and sometimes are still being made - made in the process.
I am proud being German.
Regardless how difficult it will be in the future, the Union is embedded in German cultural life and besides all differences between the different cultures in the individual states, this is something most Germans will always agree on.
It was therefore not in vain that the forefathers of our written Constitution formulated the Reunification as the first and foremost Constitutional Target.
Reunification - regardless how difficult and painful the process was and still is - a very German achievement. And one, which embodies the lessons we have learnt in history.
my children both to school in east germany, and I'm not that convinced. The school are competative and cram them in order to get better PISA scores than the west. If the children dont want to be crammed then sod them.
Well the system in VorPom quite different to that in Sachsen, the system in Bayern quite different to that in say Hamburg. The school systems in Germany are not national but vary from state to state - so to say that your children´s experience is typical of that in former East Germany or Germany etc. doesn´t really make sense. Oranges and Apples.
they now account for about 10% of all partnerships, as likely as a relationship between a German and an immigrant
Ossis ARE immigrants.
The truth of the matter is, there is a much darker picture than portrayed by the media and all these happy Germans. When the Berlin Wall fell, W.German corporations and politicians literally sucked out the highly educated (via "Communism-educated") E. Germans to bolster W. Germany's corporatocracy in terms of high tech, engineering, and high-demand scientists. It was basically a giant sucking machine.
And now that Germany has a high elderly population, they are acting the same way - sucking up all the well educated Syrians specialized in high tech, engineering and high-demand scientists. At the same time, the German govt. is dismantling their minimum wage standard enabling them to pay near slave wages for these other refugees.
Since when can anyone admire Germany and all those compliant Germans? Their recent past since unification in the 1870s suggest we always be wary of them.
Racist bollocks.
Try writing the same article about Jews or blacks and you would be censored.
Post WWII German history is much the best thing to have happened to Europe
Rubbish. He is right. Migration within capitalism is definitely used in that way and it is sanctimonious PC nonsense to pretend otherwise. America does it even more so, taking in the world's talent to maintain its "gratest nation" inventiveness etc, most of which is the intellectual attainment of others. But the bit he has about blaming Germans rather than the capitalism of their system, that is to criticise. If anyone is creating war and turmoil it is the US (and Britain stooging along behind).
You don't have a clue, not to mention that capitalism is what you have in the UK and the US. Germany always tried to establish a social market economy instead.
SOP for the corporate state. Do you think the English or French are any different? The system needs souls to devour. Of a certain age, education and ideological immaturity.
Those that don't make the cut, are left to fend for themselves like the children in Asia living off the contents of council dumps.Tripe.
Bright people go where they best rewarded.
I presume you still live on the street you were born in.
it's a very good example and no one thought this could be pulled off, there have been times from the cries of germans to put the wall back up, this is because of the massive price that was not known nor understood, all in all Germany has done a great job that we simply thought impossible i do fear for them as to what's coming next and i'm not taking VW
it would be good idea to do the same for this country, like london has the most, scotland has the second most, Ireland wales has third and forth and the northeast has almost nothing mainly redcar.The most interesting part to me personally is how the better education in the East has not translated into better earnings, better employment, better lives as measured by life expectancy.
It hasn't translated into better this and that for those who stayed put in Eastern Germany, but a lot of those who moved West have done pretty well for themselves. This, of course, has aggravated the situation in the East.
It's more complicated than that. The employment options and high wages are considerably less in the East. Many moved West to attain those things.
Precisely.
Because the West leeched the best out of the East without putting in sufficient reciprocal investment.
Not a merger so much as a (hostile) take-over.
They took the best; and left the rest.
Not much on how the Ossis and Wessis see each other. I found the people in the East quite suspicious and not very trusting the last time I was there.
This would probably be the most interesting part of the differences that deserves more attention than any of the labor statistics the article presents.
I've always found Ossis much nicer. Much more down to earth, much friendlier, much more interesting than Wessis who are often just affluent, suburban and snobby.
Stereotyping. I played with some "Ossis" beach-volleyball in Mallorca. Soon it wasn't just a game for fun, it turned into a competition where winning was a must and suddenly you got the impression that you are at an olympic game.
But i don't think all "Ossis" are like that. Only Saxons....lol
Stopped reading at the word "Hermany". I'm pretty sure the rest is the same racist BS that has become increasingly common here. Let me guess: Germany => refugees => fall of Europe => Islamisation => Sharia law => Germany's fault => Nazis ?
As soon as the wall came down I jumped into my old VW Polo and set off for Poland. I drove through West Germany (which I was very familiar with) and crossed into the East, Berlin and the Polish border. It was a very, very interesting drive. The difference between the West and East was huge. Poland, at the time, was another planet.
I have since been back to visit Dresden and the change again was huge.
I love Germany. I think it's such a great country and I have always found Germans so educated and interesting to meet.The last 25 years doesn't matter any more. The last 25 weeks changed everything. Germany as you knew it has gone.
and then there's me living here in central Germany, not a mile away from the next refugee shelter, my life still hasn't changed a bit (apart from a more tidy basement as some of my old stuff turned out to be useful for others) and I still support helping people in need...
I admit, I was against the reunification in 1989. But meanwhile I'm an Ossi-fan. Baltic-sea, Rostock, Stralsund,Wismar,Schwerin, Weimar, Dresden, Leipzig-all very nice places to spend some time. Not to mention my girlfriend from East-Berlin, a member of the former young pioneers-immer bereit!
Schwerin? Don't go there if you look like a Muslim, from personal experience it is fucking dangerous.
I never had problems with these Neonazis in the East. Maybe cause I'm no Muslim.
I was listen to some of these idiots in a pub, all aged under 25 and praising the old GDR. Something must be wrong with this education ranking ATL.I am no muslim and don't look like one am a wessi very visibly. I like the east, but the people are racist - fact! They clearly state that they feel west German cities - Cologne as well as Frankfurt specifically- to be full of foreigners (i.e. people with migrant background such as 3rd Generation Turkish people) and that is considered a problem by east Germans... why? well just so!
Actually a lot of young professionals movesd from east to west in order to join the western based companies and get pretty good jobs. So the average age of the population in the six eastern states is between 47,3 and 46,5 years while the top nine western states start from 42,4 up to 44,9 years. Just the small Saarland is an exception (46,1 years) but ist still better than the lowest eastern figure. That generates of course an impact on lifestyle, economy and feeling.
If you ask the Germans:
Are the problems of reunification mostly solved?
Westerners: 66% Yes, 32% No
Easterners: 53% Yes, 44% No
What dominates between West and East - commonalities or differences?
Westerners: 56% comm., 40% diff.
Easterners: 50% comm., 47% diff.
Another poll:
Which politician do you trust most?
West: 33% (+2% compared to August) Angela Merkel
East: 24% (-8%) A.M.
One more:
What Germans are concerned about:
The future of our (grand)children: West 65%, East 72%
social injustice: West 63%, East 76%
old-age poverty: West 64%, East 70%
European integration/Euro: West 63%, East 61%
amount of crime: West 53%, East 65%
number of asylum seekers and refugees: West 49%, East 61%
Do you trust other people:
West: 55% Yes
East: 45% YesI would argue that East Germans are a little more fearful, more envious and less optimistic (for various reasons like being older and poorer on average or having witnessed the dismantling of Eastern industry)
Assad, supported by Putin, pushes Syrians to leave the war-torn country and migrate to Europe. Both, i.e. Assad and Putin, seem to want to make trouble in the EU to weaken and destabilise it. Russians think along this line: the more migration chaos in Europe, the more chance of the EU and the rest of the West of forgetting about Ukraine and Russians' aggression there. In other words, the weaker the EU, the higher possibility of Russia recreating the empire status and imposing its political influence on Ukraine and other post-Soviet countries such as Georgia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Moldova.
I don't think Assad wanted men living in his controlled areas to migrate in droves. His army is a shell of its former self. He needs people to enlist in order to survive.
You have it exactly back to front. It's the US that has been financing anti-Assad forces, and it's ally, Saudi Arabia that has been financing ISIS. Similarly Ukraine was stirred up by the CIA using it's nazi proxies there.
I support that just shows that brainwashing works. Try a bit of independent thought, instead of just going along with what the mainstream media shoves down your throat.
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The Brandenburg Gate was finished in 1791, long before Speer was conceived, let alone designing megalomaniac structures.
Speer used vertical columns of light. So unless you re implying that any use of spot light is 'a la Speer', your analogy is incorrect.
Also I would recommend reading Gita Sereny's account of witnessing one of Speer's 'events'.
The same number of East/West intermarriages as immigrant marriages? That shows a huge cultural division, basically saying the cultural difference between an East and a West German is as big as between a German and an immigrant. And the fact that it is West men and East women only straighten this feeling.
Errr, Guardian... Re. 'bringing the two systems together' - there was no bringing together. The East was dismantled, everything of value sold off cheaply by the Treuhand, and Wessis came to the East to take over? Mostly the ones who couldn't make it in the West? You want to read 'Schnauze Wessi'.
Some truth in your comment but don't forget we have paid a lot of solidarity fees for the East and are still paying.
You basically wiped off the eastern industry and you say "solidarity fees" are just enough to compensate. I understand that the same thing happened Europe-wide when the eastern block fell apart, but this is German-German, you are the same nation.
There wasn't so much to wipe off. Only a few companies in the east have survived. Some of them are producing now the same output with 100 employees as at GDR times with 1000 employees.
“There are many reasons for the differences, including the fact that wages in the east continue to be lower – at €2,800 (£2,075) a month, people earn about two-thirds of the average wage in the west …”
According to the study mentioned above, average disposable income in east Germany (excluding Berlin) was at 86% in 2014. That’s up from 58% in 1991.The trade union-linked Hans Böckler Foundation came to a similar result: Wages in the east (including Berlin) reached 83%, agreed wages 97% of the German average.
http://www.boeckler.de/61390_61401.htm (in German)This was part of the deal set at reunification - for instance an east German teacher unlike their West German counterpart received 80 per cent of the salary, plus they are not public servants. This is an example - you need to look at the docs because this applied to many jobs etc. e.g. docs, dentists, municipal workers, and so on. It is therefore not surprising that Germany companies followed suit - e.g. hotels, factories, and so on. The wages have recently crept up - but parity has not yet been achieved across all sectors.
Germany was okay until Mama Merkel made a mess of things. She ought to be impeached really but then Germans are too obedient for that.
You're talking out of your rear. She will not be impeached because she genuinely has the support of most Germans.
Also, it would be good if you actually did your research. In the picture caption, Vattenfall is not a place, it's the name of the Swedish company that runs the power stations.
This is just another example of Graun's historic disregard of the sub-editing function, hardly the writer's fault.
"One major piece of evidence for that, he says, is that 'many Wessis have never even been to the east,' while most Ossis have been to the west."
Yeah, that may just be due to the fact that the west is larger than the east. From that it's simple stochastic, really. Assuming the same average travelling behaviour per individual, people from a randomly chose larger fraction of the country will always have travelled to a randomly chosen (disjoint) smaller part less frequently than the other way round. A smaller percentage of Germans have been to Freiburg than Freiburgers have been to any part of Germany except Freiburg. That doesn't mean Freiburgers like to travel more than the rest of us. So you'll always have more Ossis (percentage-wise) who have been to the West than the other way round, even a hundred years from now.
Yes, but if it happens that East Germans are more than twice as likely to visit the West than West Germans visit the East; your argument would be invalid, since former BRD is less than twice as large as former DDR.
If you want to get a more comprehensive alternative view about East Germany and the effects of unification check out this new book Stasi State or Socialist Paradise. The German Democratic Republic and What Became of it, by John Green and Bruni de la Motte. You will find information that you won't find anywhere else in the British media. There is another story!
Thanks Amelie, purchased on Abebooks £7.75.
(Longer description on Amazon, which adds postage.)
"[T]here is now little to distinguish life in the east and west in many regards, but there are still huge differences."
Make up your mind!Parts of the east are very nice, not just the former east of B and DD. L is a very attractive city.
Indeed, and Saxon Switzerland is one of the most heavenly pieces of nature in Europe, can be quite lovely to live in those parts so long as you're white and ideally born there
So when did the Watford Gap fall (or the Trent dry up or whatever). I mean, it's hard to see what the clear mechanism and symbol of growing apart instead of gently towards one another is.
You'd have to date the twilight of British manufacturing from the Sixties, and whatever it is London does now from the early Eighties, but you'd have to say the North of England has been run much worse (and received much less help from the central government) than the East of Germany has.
Another reason given is that in the GDR the Russians did not run the de nazification program that was run in West by the Americans.
The Red Army, as far as I am aware, did not have Africans as part of their army. The U.S. of course did.
East Germans earn less, have poorer health, have less disposable income and wage discrepancies will remain and likely worsen. But 'experts' put East German aversion to immigrants down to 'lack of experience of living with foreigners'.
Your point being?
Experts are stating the bleedin' obvious. Just as people in Devon and Somerset are far more likely to vote UKIP than Londoners.
you think "poorer health" is one reason for their "aversion to immigrants"?
Despite having spent relatively little time in Germany in the course of my travels, I have spent a great deal of time, always profitably + enjoyably, reading German philosophers, listening to German classical composers, watching Germans play foorball, 'getting to know' German women, and drinking with Germans. Any nation which can produce such excellent consumers of beer has to be a good one. Happy to know that Germany is prospering and that the German locomotive is pulling the euro + bringing other member states into line, albeit at the price of some pretty extreme subjection to discipline. But they are on the whole well-intentioned.
'... 'getting to know' German women ...'
Gosh, I had no idea their guilt complex was that bad ...
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Yes.
I can speak from personal experience. It took decades until my husband from North Germany was cultural assimilated in Bavaria.
"reality, it meant women were pressurised to run a household as well as work full time, a fact that was rarely acknowledged. As a result, childcare facilities in the east are far superior to "
What an outrageous twisting of the simple fact that East Germany paid attention to women's equality and provided far better childcare - typical Western sneering'What an outrageous twisting of the simple fact that East Germany paid attention to women's equality ...'
Yeah, East German women had exactly the same amount of freedom as East German men, none.
There is nothing sneering about it - East Germany did provide more comprehensive childcare and I believe still does. Also Gender equality East German-style really meant that - it was not about boardroom quotas - but regardless of the status of the job - Bricky to Roofer to Engineer to Managing Director to Roadbuilder etc women worked alongside men - in the DDR women were expected to work the same as men - same duties etc. Gender Equality was not perfect but it had more integrity was more real - sadly the west German pick and mix-style gender equality is permeating Eastern mindsets too - there is still some resistance though especially amongst older women.
Yep, they usually can't take it. It would mean acknowledging that women's emancipation is always necessarily linked to economic independence and free childcare, and that's not a view capitalism is comfortable with.
the GDR made some excellent products. My mother still has a battery driven clock that can only have cost a few pounds when new and keeps erfect time,,,,,,,,even when being tested.
No quite sure of the lack of exposure to foreigners laying at the root of xenophobia in former Eastern States. My uncle worked in a factory in East Berlin that employed 'Gastarbeiters' (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter#East_Germany for description of imported labour in the DDR) My impression was that the resentment of immigrants began during the years leading up to reunification and in some cases continued afterwards as people continued to regard foreigners as imported cheap labour competing for jobs and holding wages down.
Yes, there were foreign workers in East Germany - from other communist countries. These included people from North Vietnam - a former DDR-burgerin in Karl-Marx-Stadt (now Chemnitz again) told me after Die Wende that she used to know some North Vietnamese women who were foreign workers in the DDR period.
Well, and there is the usual historical baggage, i.e. a certain, shall we say, patina from the past (as in all countries). The past in this case having been viciously xenophobic - some of that is still floating about in East and West (and, as said, in other countries too).
They didn't come just from North Vietnam. After Vietnam won the "American War" workers from the South as well went to East Germany (and to Russia). Some of them married Germans, but many married fellow Vietnamese, and I think most of them still live there.
A Vietnamese woman who is a good friend of my wife had two daughters in Vietnam and then moved to East Germany, where she remarried and had a third daughter. The third daughter, now about fourteen, has gotten is receiving an excellent education in Germany, fluent in English, as well as French, German, and Vietnamese.
Most of the former East Germany is very beautiful, one of the most unspoilt landscapes in the western world. This is because of the good fortune of having had almost no new building between 1914 and 1990, and little widening of major roads, so that it is often idyllic to travel through. The East German communists didn't know what to do with the countryside or historic houses, villages and small towns, so they left them to decay and spent little money on them. As a result there was a huge treasure-house to conserve and restore, starting in 1990. Much has been achieved and because people are now conservation-minded investment in property delivers good quality historic buildings suitable for modern uses.
A successful campaign was run in the 1990s to protect the 'Alleen' - the avenues of trees along the rural roads (Allee = avenue). Many had been lost in the former West, but in Mecklenburg and Brandenburg Provinces the Alleen are protected by law. Cycling these roads is an unbeatable experience.
One might call the eastern German landscape and its villages and small towns 'Ein Geschenk von Walther und Erich'. Walther Ulbricht and Erich Honecker the successive leaders of the DDR deserve our thanks for not spoiling the land they ruled so that it has been inherited by a new generation that appreciates it..It was not that they "did not know what to do with them" - they had tight budgets for decades (remember the West took all the good industry and resources - The Ruhr particularly, the big ports, the Rhineland, Bavaria - and then got all the financial support from the Marchall Plan investment) and they had other priorities - the cathedrals in Dresden etc were not top of the list in repairing war damage. Intially too Russia took away a lot of what machinery they did have - though later they helped economically.)
There is always the temptation to treat all member states of Germany as the same. You should go back to the official name of Germany to see that there are marked regional differences and that despite major changes causes by historical events, Eastern Germany and its capital Berlin are very much what used to be Old Prussia.
There are cultural differences, linguistic differences, et cetera. Of course, isolation from the rest of Germany during the years of the DDR created additional elements to make Eastern Germany more remote. Decades of isolation cannot be erased overnight.
There are cultural differences, linguistic differences, et cetera. Of course, isolation from the rest of Germany during the years of the DDR created additional elements to make Eastern Germany more remot
Most countries have what you just detailed, the only exception is the fact that a part of you existed under the DDR......... but everything else is standard in ALL countries (even the obvious disdain you display)
The East is odd. Because of all the money spent on it, it generally looks more modern than the West. Then you turn a corner, and suddenly you're back in the old GDR. This can happen almost anywhere, and it comes as a shock. (Mind you, the most GDR-like place I've ever been in was Worksop.)
One of tomorrow's problem is the other split country, Korea.
Considering the massive investment from Western Germany into Eastern Germany and the poor integration of the 2 former German state, it appears impossible that South Korea would be able to lift North Korea the day it is disposed of by China
And one of the causes of the troubles in the EU is that the West Germans made us pay all EU countries for East Germany, and South Korea won't have the same opportunity- This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
Thanks for the informative article, Kate, and the comparative statistics which tell one (though only one of many) sides of the story.
Willi Brandt's optimistic "Was gehoert zusammen, waechst zusammen" was merely a statement of hopeful intent (of Zweckoptimismus) in 1989, not one of fact.
In addition to many positive developments, the past 25 years has witnessed considerable resentment in both parts of the divided Germanies.
Resentment from West to East because of the long-term imposition of a special "Solidarity Tax" to finance the reunification process.
Resentment from East to West because of the massive redundancies imposed by Westerners and the complete collapse of the former GDR's welfare provisions with little subsequent investment in the East German labour market (Kate points to some important markers in her article).
Persistent pockets of severe economic deprivation over decades in the former industrial heartland of North Rhine-Westphalia, West Germany. Germany is not Europe's wealthiest country when viewed from the third-world tristesse of a Wuppertal-Oberbarmen, of depressed parts of Bochum or Essen. Persistent pockets of severe economic deprivation over 25 years in the former East Germany.
A country with far too much homelessness, too many Hartz-IV recipients and far too many "one-euro jobs". More like Brooklyn, Detroit and Norleans than Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod.
A country of outrageous myths.
Many Germans work hard, that's true, but, for example, most of the people in the Mediterranean countries work harder and far longer hours for less gain (source: OECD).
Germany's senior economic and political castes can be eye-wateringly corrupt, exploitative and mendacious.
East Germans tend to play the game of survival (due to constricted financial circumstances) rather than building up sustainable models of civic society.
West Germans tend to have a greater financial security in order to engage with the world around around them on a social and political level.
For 40 years, the BRD and the DDR pursued entirely different social, economic, political and cultural goals. They became de facto different countries, albeit with a shared language and shared, though extremely fuzzy awareness of their own history (almost but not quite similar to the cherry-picking English).
Incredibly, from 1870 to 1990, East Germany only experienced a few years of sham Weimar Republic democracy (from 1919 to 1932 at most). At best, it was enforced in classic Prussian, militaristic and nationalist style; at worst, it capitulated under the pressures of hyper-inflation and the start of the Great Depression in 1929.
All this before this year's 2015 influx of migrants and refugees into a rapidly changing domestic labour market.No conclusions here on my part, but a recommendation to research in greater objective depth why the educational system in E. Germany appears to perform better than the one in W. Germany and why this has not led to the East closing the economic gap to the West. Thanks again in advance!
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German reunification has clearly not been without its problems, but still probably a lot easier than other possible nightmare scenarios, such as South Korea - North Korea reunification, or even worse, India - Pakistan reunification.
Can't imagine the latter at this date. As for the Koreas, any political changes will take decades, maybe generations, to become a fully economic/political integration. My guess is they would go slow, and with some strong limits--for example, no Rep. of Korea troops anywhere near the Russian and Chinese borders. The Northerners would eat far better and have decent medical care, but revamping the schools, moving towards a new economic system, even rebuilding the infrastructure, will be long term projects. You can't force people to be free; I was in Albania shortly after the end of the Communist era. People were by and large lost, didn't know how to market their resources, etc. You can see Russia has fallen back into old patterns too. Deprogramming NK will take at last a generation, but eventually the young people will "get it" that they were lied to and things can get better. Then they will start to.
Don't call it the REunification. The eastern Länder were never part of the Federal Republic of Germany prior to 1990. That's not pedantry: obviously two Germanies became one, and there had been one in the past, but this one had very specific values and relationship with its past, all of which were defined, even dictated, by the BRD rather than the DDR. "Reunification" connotes a coming together of equals; this was an assimilation of one Germany by the other.
we get it, you don't like paying the extra tax... I, on the other hand appreciate the symbolism... but that's just as meaningful...
Thank you for this. Quite right. To start with, there may have been 're-unification' on a private level, but these were two sovereign states, founded roughly at the same time, both recognised by the UN. So no 're-' in this unification, unless you are talking about the defunct (thank goodness) German Empire - Deutsches Reich.
The term reunification is a (fairly successful) attempt to appeal to nationalism and to turn the clock back. 1945 took care of any of that.
East Berlin (with the exception of Marzahn and maybe a couple other worse-off areas) essentially feels like a slightly cheaper and more vibrant but less multicultural version of the West.
As for the rest of the former DDR, there are some very nice places to live there so long as you're white, and ideally German.
Marzahn has a lovely brewery incidentally (not that it makes a suburb of course), Alt Börse Marzah
I had a temporary girlfriend in East Berlin in 1983 I visited over a number of days there.
Her friends interest in foreigners reminded me of - Australia !
Every thing is fine in Germany?
The German Deputy Chancellor, Sigmar Gabriel, the German Interior Minister, Thomas de Maiziere and the Governor of Bavaria, Horst Seehorst, do not think so and speak freely about it in Germany. When can we read about their statements and concerns in the Guardian? Surely, they are no dangerous radicals?It's not fine outside Germany, even if it is within.
The Czechs, Slovaks and Poles have sent their armies to the Hungarian border and the Croats to the Montenegrin border, where they fear migrants will come through Albania/Montenegrin coast.
Merkel may have started a chain reaction, and I don't agree that she had the right to embroil other, poorer countries in chaos, let alone her own without consultation.
Still, Facts are Sacred, but not in the Guardian.
This information is fresh from the Croatian press this evening, courtesy of my Yugoslav husband (fits no other category, mixed family history).
There are huge regional differences within Germany that have nothing to do with east\west. They make Germany an interesting country. The Guardian only deals with inane simplifications though, so you're lumbered with this nonsense.
This 'nonsense' being a product of .... "..The Berlin Institute for Population and Development ..." as it states clearly in the article.
If you have funding, why not propose they do a federal/state/region analysis and be happy? Carping is not helping. I'm guessing you come from the west of britain, the ones on the east having better education, read articles before commenting.
Duh it is about the 25 years anniversary of unified Germany so of course there is emphasize on east / west vs. the regional differences.
There are many reasons for the differences, including the fact that wages in the east continue to be lower – at €2,800 (£2,075) a month.
totally inaccurate summation.
25 years on and tomorrow there is nothing to celebrate. Within the last few months/weeks I have seen a democratic country becoming an autocratic country and no one seems to be worrying about it. Merkel decides and that is ok. The media plays along and German history repeats itself. I cannot watch the news in Germany anymore and have to resort to looking in the internet for an alternative
There are increasingly critical articles in major newspapers.
Especially in Die Welt and Die Zeit.
Read the comment section in Die Zeit, one of the most liberal and intellectual newspapers in Germany.Thank you and I do. What worries me is that there are very few such critical voices in the Bundestag because the parties are virtually the same. It is "alternativlos". How can there be a discussion, if everyone wants to think the same?
I'd call Die Welt critical only in matters of the current refugee crisis. It probably is the most conservative German farranging newspaper. If you're interested in more liberal ones try Frankfurter Rundschau, if you prefer it further left then you might read taz.de
Putin has set his eyes on the East , I see another annexation like Crimea . You can't blame
Putin , now recognised as a powerful leader . It is now likely that Merkel will lose her
Stalinist housing unit in the region , as she did not remain as a resident . I am concerned
about the EU , will it also be absorbed into the Russian Federation ? This could be an important move for refugees to head off to the UK . Cameron will be waiting with open arms , all that accommodation available in Castles and Palaces . Blimey ! Toffs and Tories !Russia : 142,098,141 Population of Russia (2015)
EU : As of 1 January 2015, the population of the EU is about 508.2 million people.
US : The population of the United States is estimated at 322,583,006 as of July 1 2014.
Russia
Country
Russia, the world’s largest nation, borders European and Asian countries as well as the Pacific and Arctic oceans.Statistics
Russia
GDP per capita
14,611.70 USD (2013)
Gross domestic product
2.097 trillion USD (2013)GDP elsewhere
United States of America
GDP per capita 53,041.98 USD (2013)
GDP 16.77 trillion USD (2013)United Kingdom
GDP per capita 41,787.47 USD (2013)
GDP 2.678 trillion USD (2013)India
GDP per capita 1,498.87 USD (2013)
GDP 1.877 trillion USD (2013)An army marches on its stomach , used to be the saying.
The US became dominant in WWII and beyond because of its economic strength.
A modern military needs more than a full stomach. It need a large and strong economy with adequate human resources to support it.
Don't forget both sides have nukes.
As for absorbing the EU, The EU has 3.8 times Russia's population.
The Russia would die of indigestion.
Judging from your imagination that has run wild, a period of being sectioned in a mental institution might bring you back to reality. Highly recommended.
Putin has a lot of problems himself and the only reason to do something is to distract from the own economic problems. Actually he doesn't know what to do, otherwise he would have already done it. Putin has no answer and hopes that time will bring him the answer. He is in Check! And, if he is not careful he will be soon Checkmate!
Since 9 November coincidentally was also the day of the Nazi pogrom in 1938 which the Nazis cynically called "Reichskristallnacht", Germany couldn't very well make it its national holiday. So the day when unification formally took place was chosen instead.
Another ignominious rememberance linked with Nov 9 was Hitler's failed coup d'etat
in Munich on Nov 9th 1923.
Nothing surprising there. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Whether they are moderately better off or a lot better off. We see it here in the UK and every where else in the world. What do you expect in systems that favour those who have against those who don't have.
why these long articles aboutnforeign countries
we know about east germany and communism and stuff
why do we need long articles about germany
let the germans write them and read them
id rather read about my country
England
how about something about barnsley or plymouth
I know nothing about them and im english
or tell us who jack the ripper was
something relevant to usBoring. And enough, already, about Jack the Ripper.
Moreover, much of the Guardian readership is not English. And you have local papers that I suspect do an ok job of this: Manchester has at least one such, although I don't remember the name.
If you study your country's history and travel within your country in your holidays yo may learn something about it.
Getting pissed on the Costa Brava during a holiday only kills some of your brain cells but adds no knowledge about your country.
I live on the other side of the world but I have been to Plymouth. Actually to many more places than that town. Not only once but three times.
I also have been to East Germany in 1976. When the Border guard saw a British registered camper van, ie. RHS steering , and two people coming out with two different and non-British passports he was so confused he couldn't get out a word.
I guessed he must have missed all geography lessons.PS. Reading about stuff in a newspaper is not acquiring knowledge about another country. It merely provides one with prejudices.
Amazing!
I visited Berlin in the late 80s when the differences starker. Preferred the grittiness of Mitte and Kreusberg to the blandness of 'the economic miracle'. We need another Werner Fassbinder but a big ask. Not even sure he'd get a following now though 'the lives of others' and more recently 'Phoenix' splendid if less restive.
a dreamer is a better dreamer with a full belly or, Maybe your memory is starting to fade away a little bit?
I admit that the icing on the cake on the western side though maybe a few years later-Barenboim conducting the Wagner Ring cycle over 4 nights though now I prefer dvds with a good stereo system.
massively ironic that 25 years after the fall of 'communism' Russia are in the ascendancy as the west prevaricates and the economy picks up speed in the economic death spiral. who'd of thunk it?
Shifting a few warplanes to Syria and funding an insurgency in the Ukraine is hardly being "in the ascendancy".
Russia GDP Annual Growth Rate 1996-2015 | Data | Chart | Calendar
The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Russia contracted 4.60 percent in the second quarter of 2015 over the same quarter of the previous year. GDP Annual Growth Rate in Russia averaged 3.40 percent from 1996 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 12.10 percent in the fourth quarter of 1999 and a record low of -11.20 percent in the second quarter of 2009. GDP Annual Growth Rate in Russia is reported by the Federal State Statistics Service.Russian GDP Contraction Confirmed at 4.6% in Q2
Russian GDP shrank 4.6 percent year-on-year in the second quarter of 2015, in line with the preliminary estimates. It is the worst figure since the third quarter of 2009.
Manufacturing contracted 4.8 percent, mining fell 0.1 percent and construction 6.9 percent. Among services, wholesale and retail trade decreased 9.9 percent, real estate activities went down 5.7 percent, transport and communication decreased 4.1 percent and financial activities fell 5.2 percent.
Year-on-year, only agriculture, hunting and forestry (up 2.1 percent), public administration and military security (up 1.2 percent) and utilities (up 1.0 percent) increased.
On a quarter-on-quarter seasonally adjusted basis, the economy contracted for the fourth consecutive period by 2.0 percent, from upwardly revised 1.57 percent drop.
The Economy Minister revised 2015 growth forecast to -3.3 percent from -2.8 percent.
Russia's Population Is Still Growing, But Trouble Lies Ahead
However, the downward trend in growth is quite worrisome and strongly suggests that there could be trouble on the horizon. There is mounting anecdotal and statistical evidence that Russia’s increasingly severe economic problems are already having a negative impact on its birth rate and on the level of immigration from the rest of the “near abroad:” births in November were down by more than 5% year-over-year, and immigration is on pace to decrease by more than 10%.
Depopulation with Russian characteristics—population decline powered by an explosive upsurge of illness and mortality—is altogether more forbidding in its economic implications, not only forcing down popular well-being today, but also placing unforgiving constraints on economic productivity and growth for tomorrow.As we have already seen, it is Russia’s death crisis that accounts for the entirety of the country’s population decline over the past decade and a half. The upsurge of illness and mortality, furthermore, has been disproportionately concentrated among men and women of working age—meaning that Russia’s labor force has been shrinking more rapidly than the population overall.
Health is a critical and central element in the complex quantity that economists have termed “human capital.” In the contemporary international economy, one additional year of life expectancy at birth is associated with an increase in per capita output of about 8 percent. A decade of lost life expectancy improvement would correspond to the loss of a doubling of per capita income. By this standard, Russia’s economic as well as its demographic future is in jeopardy.
It is not obvious that Russia will be able to recover rapidly from its health katastroika.
Putin’s Kremlin made a fateful bet that natural resources—oil, gas, and other extractive saleable commodities—would be the springboard for the restoration of Moscow’s influence as a great power on the world stage. In this gamble, Russian authorities have mainly ignored the nation’s human resource crisis. During the boom years—Russia’s per capita income roughly doubled between 1998 and 2007—the country’s death rate barely budged. Very much worse may lie ahead. How Russia’s still-unfolding demographic disaster will affect the country’s domestic politics.
----IMO a rather peculiar way to "ascend".
I would say you need to do a bit of research before making such a wild claim of ascendancy.
Military adventures are often used by politicians to detract the peoples gaze from internal problems.
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".........no need to thank us.. ............"
The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states roughly on a per capita basis. A larger amount was given to the major industrial powers, as the prevailing opinion was that their resuscitation was essential for general European revival. Somewhat more aid per capita was also directed towards the Allied nations, with less for those that had been part of the Axis or remained neutral. The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total), followed by France (18%) and West Germany (11%). Some 18 European countries received Plan benefits.[3] The Soviet Union refused Plan benefits.
The food situation in occupied Germany was initially very dire. By the spring of 1946 the official ration in the American zone was no more than 1,275 calories (5,330 kJ) per day, with some areas probably receiving as little as 700 calories (2,900 kJ) per day. In the British zone the food situation was dire, as found during a visit by the British (and Jewish) publisher Victor Gollancz in October and November 1946. In Düsseldorf the normal 28-day allocation should have been 1,548 calories (6,480 kJ) including 10 kilograms (22 lb) of bread, but as there was limited grain the bread ration was only 8.5 kilograms (19 lb). However, as there was only sufficient bread for about 50% of this “called up” ration, the total deficiency was about 50%, not 15% as stated in a ministerial reply in the British Parliament on 11 December. So only about 770 calories (3,200 kJ) would have been supplied, and he said the German winter ration would be 1,000 calories (4,200 kJ) as the recent increase was “largely mythical”. His book includes photos taken on the visit and critical letters and newspaper articles by him published in several British newspapers; The Times, The Daily Herald, The Manchester Guardian, etc.[5]
Some occupation soldiers took advantage of the desperate food situation by exploiting their ample supply of food and cigarettes (the currency of the black market) to get to the local German girls as what became known as frau bait (The New York Times, June 25, 1945). Some soldiers still felt the girls were the enemy, but used them for sex nevertheless.[6]
The often destitute mothers of the resulting children usually received no child support. In the earliest stages of the occupation, U.S. soldiers were not allowed to pay maintenance for a child they admitted having fathered, since to do so was considered "aiding the enemy". Marriages between white U.S. soldiers and Austrian women were not permitted until January 1946, and with German women until December 1946.[6]
The children of black American soldiers, commonly called Negermischlinge[7] ("Negro half-breeds"), comprising about three percent of the total number of children fathered by GIs, were particularly disadvantaged because of their inability to conceal the foreign identity of their father. Black soldiers were reluctant to admit to fathering such children since this would invite reprisals, and even in the cases where a soldier was willing to take responsibility, until 1948 the U.S. Army prohibited interracial marriages.[7] The mothers of the children would often face particularly harsh ostracism.[8]
Between 1950 and 1955 the Allied High Commission for Germany prohibited "proceedings to establish paternity or liability for maintenance of children."[7] Even after the lifting of the ban West German courts had little power over American soldiers.While Allied servicemen were ordered to obey local laws while in Germany, soldiers could not be prosecuted by German courts for crimes committed against German citizens except as authorized by the occupation authorities.
Despite the grants of general sovereignty to both German states in 1955, full and unrestricted sovereignty under international law was not enjoyed by any German government until after the reunification of Germany in October 1990. Though West Germany was generally independent, the Allies maintained some controls over West Germany. East Germany was a satellite state of the Soviet Union.
The provisions of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, also known as the "Two-plus-Four Treaty," granting full sovereign powers to Germany did not become law until 15 March 1991, after all of the participating nations had ratified the treaty. As envisaged by the Treaty, the last Occupation troops departed from Germany when the Russian presence was terminated in 1994. (Refer below)
A 1956 plebiscite ended the French administration of the Saar protectorate, and it joined the Federal Republic as Saarland on 1 January 1957, being its 10th state.
The city of Berlin was not part of either state and continued to be under Allied occupation until the reunification of Germany in October 1990.There are still US troops stationed in Germany at present.
------IMO the Germans have hardly any reason to be thankful.
Very illuminating comment. The part about the status people in interracial relationships was especially good.
However, it would also be nice to hear something about what happened in the East, that is, the status of people in Russian-German relationships. There were, for example, many marriages between Russian soldiers and East German women.
Oh, I'm sorry.....apologies.....you seem to believe that I was referring to Germany.......no, I was implying all of Western Europe including the UK.....you see, take the US and our pretty little nukes out of the equation, and Stalin wouldn't have stopped at Berlin.....also, not really going to read a long diatribe from an anonymous, uncredentialed internet poster......regards.
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factories that were bought by west German industrialists and deliberately run into the ground to scotch competition
How utterly bloody vile.
South England v north England anyone. My first fact would be: councils in Sunderland and Northumbria have been made to make cuts 10 x more than those in Surrey or Berkshire.
Haters gonna hate...sanctions gonna hurt....german-russian alliance gonna destroy...so lets...ah we did already.
I am astonished about that concern about Germany.
IMO they will muddle through whatever happens there . The have had plenty of practice in muddling through.
Why bother about celebrating reunification? One can have more fun by going to the Munich beer festival called Oktoberfest which is held in September . That months has just passed and those that attended have first to get over their gigantic hangover. There is no point in starting another piss up straight away.
I suppose the Germans celebrate when it suits them, like in September but calling it Oktober celebration, rather than when the rest of the world expects them to celebrate.
For example , I celebrate Xmas in summer and I don't give a stuff what they do elsewhere.
This article is tendentious and not accurate exactly like the named study. Sorry, but this is not serious journalism. You mention only some aspects of the study which itself is not accurate. And you only mention 9 issues out of 24+.
Both, study and the article, are not really trying to give a genuine view of what is really happening.
For example, the statistics about unemployment and employed women are biased, falsified.
In germany, they count people as "labour force" if they are looking for a job and actually do NOT have a job. Many are registered but jobless. Or, the study doesn't mention why eastern women are more eager to work or earlier to go back to work after a pregnancy. It is because they are more in need.And, they forgot an important, incredible aspect to compare:
Most neo-Nazis are meanwhile in the ex "socialist" East.
Rampant racism and xenophobia there where less foreigners live. A chronic illness.Beneath all the dry statistics, one might observe that the current German chancellor, Frau Merkel, is an Ossie. And she is probably the most able leader of either part of Germany since perhaps Konrad Adenauer who led West Germany in its earliest days.
Joachim Gauck, the Bundespräsident, who is the formal head of state, is from East Germany as well.
Are people living in the West Germany,more prosperous than the East Germany? Unification is welcome,and it takes time to reap the benefits. One hopes that one day South Korea,and North Korea will be unified into one nation.
"One hopes that one day South Korea,and North Korea will be unified into one nation."
Uncle Sam hopes that the re-unification of North and South Koreas doesn't happen because when it happens, the US will no longer have any pretext to station its troops on the Korean Peninsula.
If you'd read the article you'd know that those living in the West are more prosperous than those in E.Germany.
Depends on how you juggle the numbers...people in east earn less, but the cost of living also tends to be lower. After the reunification companies were encouraged to go to East Germany, especially Berlin, to the costs of the towns in West Germany where they were seated beforehand. Generally speaking the unemployment rate in the east is higher (which is one of the reasons why racism runs more rampant there, but it is actually more connected with the cultural gab), but there are regional differences.
So.... you could compare the north of England to the the south by the same units? Or Scotland to England, heaven forbid?! Or Northern Ireland. ......... oh god not almighty!
What a rediculous analysis. Younhavevthis problem in the north and south of the USA, the north and south of Italy same in England same in Canada west is richer than the east.
East-west partnerships are often referred to as “Wossis”.
Wossis? Never heard this expression in Germany. I have to read English papers to know what's going on here. Thank you Guardian.
I have just moved to Berlin which is in the heart of East Germany. Very informative and very true comparison.....
Yes, it was a miracle that both cultures got together. Rubbish, Russia ran out of money and had no other choice and thanks to Gorbatschow who set in motion Perestroika and Glasnost the wall came down.
Besides, the unification nearly did not happen because women in East were outraged about the infringements of their abortion rights, and actual in general about the backwardness of Western women rights. And that was after 1970s...(let's do not talk about the privatisation of women's chores that have been turned into household chores) Women in West Germany needed the male authority of the state to abort. The Western Conservative government could not give in to the Eastern women's stand that the decision is a personal choice by the woman. What did the government do? They left it open to discuss it later....Just so difficult for the men collective...Walls separating people are never a good thing (Palestine?)......
Such a huge challenge could not happen fully troublefree. Still, it was done fast, Germany did not go bust on it and it is definitely an achievement (South Korean could not afford such action with the North).
There is still work to be done, some capitalists got immoral bargains in the East at the time but overall Europe is a better place better since.
The different situation:
Soviet Union wanted to get rid of a burden GDR had become.
Communist China needs North Korea as a buffer zone, so that its citizens would not discover first hand what South Korean citizens' standard of living is.
A manager of a Bangkok hotel told an East German friend of mine that he could always tell if the German tourist was from the east or the west by their behaviour.
The example given was a mosquito net with a hole in it. The west German will complain and ask for a new net. The east German says nothing and just fixes the hole with sellotape.Doubt the mosquito story is true UNLESS told by a European Bangkok hotel manager who knew little about the city he worked in.
Why? Been in Asia a loooong time and have never needed a mosquito net in a Asian hotel except in Myanmar....
So integration by East Germany into West Germany isn't happening smoothly,
but non Europeans are expected to integrate without difficulty.
Utopian thinking?
Fanciful expectations.Compare clashes between Afghans and Syrians in German refugee camps.
The East is much more beautiful than the West when it comes to landscape, nature and wildlife.
The one thing that's really worrying about the East, and the reason why I wouldn't move there, is the neo nazi activity.Not everywhere. northwest Thuringia isn't a patch on neighbouring northern Hessen, or southern Niedersachsen. And the Baltic Sea inland areas - Schleswig Holstein has the edge over much of Meck Pom. Havelland is nice. And towards Bohemia, Erzgebirge etc. is really lovely. But the Schwäbische Alb is also lovely and so are parts of the Upper Rhine (Kaiserstuhl for instance). And the wolves are arriving in the west too.
I'm not saying that the West doesn't have nice spots, I live in the West, but the East has the most cranes and even great bustards. Schleswig Holstein has very few moor areas that are still intact (Dosenmoor), the wetland areas in the East are vast. The East is less densely populated, the landscape is less cut in little pieces by autobahnen, you have these large, undisturbed areas everywhere, the Mittelelbe region, the lakes, moors, wetlands, and rivers. Just look at the Havel on a map! That's what a river should look like!
With respect, very subjective, not really worth talking about, but I can`t resist the temptation to tell you to visit the Königsee. The most beautiful place ( I think) on earth.
East Germany or the German Democratic Republic should be the pride of the German people as a result of its accomplishments in many areas such as education, culture, health and social servces - particularly services for women - recreation and leasure and sport. It should also be commended for its foreign policy.
After the 2nd World War East Germany compensated Poland, the USSR and Czechoslovakia for the destruction of the Nazis, whereas West Germany did not give a single pfennig. Not only was West Germany not asked to compensate, it actually had its huge debt cancelled in 1953.
Besides, the German Federal Republic was actually a bastard state. After the war the Soviets were in favour of a unified German state that would hold free elections. The Americans and the British were so afraid of the outcome of those elections - the Communist Party of Germany (the heroic KPD) stood a good chance of winning them (think of the French Communist Party that won the elections right after the war in France) that they created unilaterally a vassal state which, it is true, they helped immensely develop in order to be the shop window, so to speak, for the East Germans who were trying to build a socialist society.Is that the same Soviet state that allowed all of the occupied eastern block free democratic elections?
i've met of lot of estarn #liberal' europeans who tell me that life- though economically poorer in consumer terms - was socially far better and cohesive with genuine equal classless opportunities than today - though many complained about the curious 'unofficial' reactionary role of the catholic church in interfering and often overlooked or even tacitly encouraged by the stasi.
Interesting with education. Personal experience was that at an East German university, at masters level in natural science, the general level of the students, but in particular their ability to think independently, was higher than in a nearby and world-renowned West German one. So there is something to that educational attainment that I've witnessed in university classrooms.
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the reason that there is a population loss in Germany is the very bad help given to women raising children - they have to come home for lunch in primary school so it is difficult to have a serious job - and have say 3 children - i just don't understand why they do nog support women who work and have children and thus be able to have more Germans - now of course these new potential Germans - the middle class from Syria will add a great deal - but why they were so reluctant to supply services for workiing mothers - the Catholic Church in Germany may be more conservative than the French - in France there are excellent services for working mothers
Only 30% of so called refugees from war-torn Syria are really from that country, German authorities have belatedly discovered.
[the rest being economic migrants from other ME countries]And Catholic Church has only Bavaria to claim; the rest of Germany being Protestant, and in case of former GDR - former Commies. [not always reformed].
The entire south of Germany is mostly catholic, as is the west, up to the Ruhr area. There is a prostestant majority in Germany only since the reunification, in the former FRG there were more Catholics than Protestants.
Yep, the FRG was kinda fifty-fifty, with a slight lead for Protestants, with nominal Protestants from the former GDR that has shifted a little bit. There are no segregated areas, however, both denominations are present basically everywhere, down to the smallest village.
I live in Bavaria, but I work with people from Saxony, one lives next door. I like them a lot, they speak in a fantastic, funny German and can repair anything.A lot more friendly than the locals.
Nice. One guy from Saxony is friendly and helpful. The media should investigate, as actually it seems most Saxons aren't. Otherwise even you hadn't to make this statement.
great informative researched article - that makes the other Guardian 'view' editorial and liberal laudation of Frau Merkel and German european resurgence, hypocrisy of the finest order!
Germans are a sensible people, they live within their means. The Greeks lived way beyond their means for decades. When it all came cdrashing down, who did they blame? Everyone else, particularly the Germans, but themselves!
You have to admit that an average person doesn't know what their means, as a country, are. They were lent the money to keep the northern economies going, but that was on false pretences, hence their bitterness.
You forgot to tell us about the german companies like Siemens , MAN etc that bribed Greek politicians in order to close deals with the government...oh , i forgot the german yellow papers that you read like Bild didn't tell you that , right ?
Yes, Greece is soaked in corruption because of German companies. A more common thread is that Greece's trouble is everyone else's fault (EZ, EU, Euro, Siemens, Goldman Sachs, MAN, Juncker, Merkel, Schauble and so on forever), nothing to do with electing corrupt politicians for decades.
I was there, then. I remember a gag:
Q:What's the difference between a Turk and a Saxon?
A: The Turk speaks German and has a job.I am 26 - I was born in 1989 - so I am a member of the generation that has passed since the wall came down. To be honest I am annoyed by the media constantly stressing the differences between West and East. I don't think in those terms and I never have. There are sixteen very diverse Länder and I know people from all of them. To me it feels like the differences are kept artificially alive by politicians, journalists and others who were adults in 1989 - and especially by those born in the 50s, 60s and 70s. People born in the 20s, 30s or 40s still remember the time before the seperation and the united Germany feels more natural to them - as it feels to people born in the 80s, 90s and 00s. Unfortunately those born between 1950 to 1980 outnumber the rest and this is why their way of thinking dominates our media, politics, collective memory... old prejudices and obstacles overshadowing the hope and openess of the young. It is a shame.
I am a friggin Russian, with 2 grandfathers killed by your ancestors.
But, I do not keep you responsible. What I think is wrong with you is your puppet behavior toward US.Re Marshall Plan... Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland had initially accepted Marshall Plan aid, but had to reject later under a heavy pressure from Moscow.
As a result only now those countries are slowly catching up with those W. European countries which did receive such aid.
And re U$A you hate so much: what would your Soviet Union do without the gigantic American Lend/Lease Plan? Even in early 1960s your katyushas were still mounted on American Studebaker trucks, which Nikita Khrushchev discovered himself, to his fury, during his visit to East Berlin.
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I'd like to put in some good words about the East. Some lovely parts of the Harz Mountains (and narrow-gauge steam trains to get you from A to B), the Zittauer Gebirge hills near the Czech and Polish borders - also served by narrow-gauge steam and the amazingly lovely old city of Görlitz. Was in Görlitz in DDR times when (like many other towns) it was a crumbling, grey place - nowadays it sparkles. Stands on the River Neisse opposite Polish Zgorzelec, and a pedestrrian bridge links the two. Sick of German spirits? Nip across the bridge and there's a vodka shop almost in front of you!
Germans cross the bridge not only to buy Polish vodka but also Audis, Volksvagens and Skodas which are cheaper in Poland then in Germany.
[well, they bought VWs diesels en mass at least till the most recent scandal]
Good to hear that Görlitz is a lovely city. Many years ago, I lived in Kreuzberg in West Berlin, and my local U-Bahn was Görlitzer Bahnhof. To the east the tracks led nowhere, as we were close to the wall. I don't know if trains run east from there now.
Trains run regularly from Ostbahnhof to Goerlitz. The trip takes about 3 hours, with one transfer along the way.
"As a result, childcare facilities in the east are far superior to those in the west, where every fourth child under three is in a nursery; in the east, it is more than half." ???
So 1/4 is more than 1/2 ??
Germany is better than the UK, if Corbyn makes Uk like this than Brits must thank him.
Sorry but the UK is not the greatest place, not even close.
At this date their first words of the congratulation have to be adressed to the former Soviet Union.If it didn't want and permit it would never happen.USSR received nothing instead but who asked it to believe?
Angela should reflect on Russia's forgiveness and easy reunification of Germany. She did not. History have tendency to repeat itself.
German reunification had nothing to do with non-existing Russia's forgiveness.
Just as UK had to let India go after WWII, since it couldn't afford to maintain it, Russia had to let E. Germany go, especially that Gorbachev got quite a few billions of DMs for Soviet reforms (which failed anyway) from Chancellor Kohl.
[for the same reason Yeltsin had to let earlier enslaved Soviet republics (from Azerbaijan to Uzbekistan) go to save Russia proper from a total economic collapse]
Some have been saying that if managing the integration of the two German states was so difficult, the integration of hundreds of thousands of refugees will be even more challenging.
It seems that the President of Germany, Joachim Gauck, agrees with you, as paraphrased below. The difference this time is that people are being brought together now, who had not previously belonged together. The east and west shared a language, history, and culture. Integration of refugees will require patience, and it's expected that the refugees will adapt to German values, which are not negotiable. In particular, intolerance will not be tolerated, specifically condemning antisemitism, homophobia and discrimination against women. The dilemma is that while Germany has a big heart, the possibilities are not unlimited.
(Report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine from the ceremony commemorating German reunification today.)
Right, up to this day, it hasn't been possible to fully integrate people from the east of Germany although there is a common language. The ways of thinking in the east is totally different from that of the west part.
And if Kohl hadn't forced that unification, we would not have to cope an unqualified chancellor like Angela Merkel from the east. Since the times of Willi Brandt and partly Helmut Schmidt, Germany has not had a sensibly thinking chancellorI don't know, I barely notice the west-east differences mainly the north and south... perhaps Germany should be split into four countries.. or should we accept that Germany is a dynamic country and due it the size there will be variations? Or we point fingers and complain about the unification tax because that is constructive.
Sounds like the east-west divide in Germany, twenty-five years on is less than the north-south divide in the UK. How long have you lot been at it?
Well, actually nobody had ever really wanted the unification. It just happened.The east of Germany, coined by the Russians, was and is not, until this day, compatible with the west. Hardly anyone in West Germany had been keen on uniting with the east. It was that monster chancellor Kohl, who wanted the unification. And the people didn't have anything to say.
It's different in England, the Scots up north have their own culture, the east Germans haven't. They only have their Russian heritage which does not comply with the western ways at all, even after 25 years. It's still quite a problem.
As a Yank, I'd like it if the mass of Americans who seem to think that improving education will alchemically erode structural market inequalities were to read this. I say this not to devalue the former East's collective attainments in education, but rather to point out that greater cultivation of the cognitive and cultural endowments of the Eastern citizenry appears to, predictably, have had little effect on the blunt reality that the more prosperous industries and firms exist in the former West, and that the wage structure there is accordingly more advantageous to workers.
Education is essential in its own right (a vital "end it itself," to borrow from Kant, since it is Germany of which we speak), and from some of the comments below I gather that life in the former East has much to recommend it. My comment is motivated mainly by some frustration that, here in the U.S., supposedly smart people seem to think that "fixing the schools" will have a significant effect on structural market forces (mainly, a surplus of labor that globalization has enabled capital to more fully exploit in recent decades). A focus on "the schools" as a panacea for economic injustice seems a classic limousine liberal sort of ideological move.
One could also argue that East Germans would be worse off compared to West Germans if they did not have higher educational level.
Economic differences are obviously a heritage of different economic structures that existed before unification. The article mentions that all big companies are in the West.
You don't consider the US protectionist policies, and the US is one nation, in your case factories are not pulled away. Also, the US education system is different.
There as here, your economic status is more dependent on your parents and grandparents status than it is on any other single factor. The old saying, "Them's that's got is them that gets."
It's a bit inaccurate to talk about a reunification of Germany. Rather, the former GDR was dismantled and absorbed into the West's political, social and economic structures. The constitution, the national anthem, and the currency of East Germany - all of it was scrapped and the territory was effectively annexed by the West.
From an international relations standpoint, letting West Germany take over the East was an absolutely foolish, misguided step on the part of Germany's WW2 enemies. Have they not learned from history? Hundreds of millions of lives destroyed in the world wars - all of it was Germany's fault. A militaristic and aggressive Germany is not in anybody's interest. History is repeating itself as a more assertive is seeking to expand its influence.
East Germany was a fairly decent country that had a sophisticated economy, a generous system of social welfare, and a disciplined and educated population. Food and housing cost virtually nothing and everyone was employed with a good job. All of that is gone now and all the East has seen is an expansion of unemployment and poverty.
The people of the East are being bullied by those in the West e.g. they're rewriting history to portray the East as the bad guys. In fact, the regime in the East was the rightful successor to the anti-fascist resistance whilst the regime in the West was dominated by former Nazi officials: Reinhard Gehlen and Hans Speidel were founding fathers of the West's military and intelligence services and they also served Hitler during the war.
I disagree with the "it made them powerful" thing.
They make the same mistakes as the Austrian empire before the compromise.
When the Hungarian territories were liberated from ottoman occupation, Austria considered the land to be part of Austria and not Hungary (The emperor had the both titles) A rebellion came, and in the peace deal they the law was withdrawn.
100 years Later the Austrian empire adopted a double protectionist policy (mercantile customs both inside(between Austria and Hungary) and outside, resulting a strong Austrian industry while the empire as a whole was weakened. Additonal 150 years later the industrial growth stopped, and the empire was stagnating, and in 1866 Austria lost the German unification war against Germany. The compromise came in 1867 where the economic structure changed no subsidies came from Austria, and the common control with the exception of the common policies, what were financed together. After then, the Austro-Hungarian economic growth exceeded all other nation.Move over to the commies - that was the appropriate call to idiots praising the
Stasi dictatorship in the GDR.
The reunification is the best that happened to the Germans. Willy Brandt was right about “What belongs together, will grow together”. Although the Germans had been divided into "Ossis" (easterners) and "Wessis" (westerners) for forty years, they have shared the same history and spoken the same language for more than a thousand years.
Even if there are still "more differences" between them "than commonalities", it is just a matter of time for the "Ossis" to catch up, blend in, and melt together with the "Wessis".Why do you assume it is exclusively the Ossis that have catching up to do? I'm a Wessi myself, but the idea that the Ossis have nothing to teach the Wessis (humility, for one..? ) is a bit offensive.
Not sure if you're just taking the p… (What have the Romans ever done for us)
But still:
They're better at recycling and creating day care centres for working mothers. Better at improvising. Showed us that it is not a law of nature that women can't rewire a fuse (most east German women can). They have a positive kind of collectivism. A somewhat positive skepticism towards politicians.
I would say the entire culture of Berlin is heavily influenced by East Germans - basically, not putting wealth above having good experiences, having fun on a budget.
They gave us the green man in the hat on the traffic lights, decent sparkling wine and pickles, and obviously, the coast of the Baltic see.
It's a naive myth to believe in the alleged better childcare in the former GDR. Actually
psychologists today assume that the collective upbringing in factories' Kitas caused
deficits in the mental development of the kids, maybe one reason why certain people
in the new Bundesländer are more prone to extreme racist Neo-Nazi attitudes.Which bit ?
Despite all this I must say on a side note that even if things were different, the fact that Germans from opposite side of the country have not visited the other side is not that strange.
In any country many people have never visited certain regions. Many Americans have never been to other regions of the US, and many English have never been to Scotland or Wales.That lovely Eastern Germany of yours was a dictatorship that hat no qualms mining the inside of its own borders to stop its citizens from leaving. And they did not willingly compensate, The Soviets simply took from them by force, kept the land and distributed (some) of the rest. Kindly read up on your history.
"German reunification 25 years on: how different are east and west really."
As a non German, my impressions of its present day status has been gained from a limited base of historical study, but is as follows.
East Germany should more accurately be thought of as North-East Germany=Ossis, and West Germany as South-West Germany=Wessis. The East-West demarcation being the Elbe River.
Although both have a common language, other historical developments have given rise to a host of social, political, economic, and religious differences. These in a nutshell are;
Ossis; Largely rural, protestant, the domain of large Von estates worked by German and Polish rural pesants. Famous for its Junker military geniuses.
Wessis; More urbanized, industrialized, catholic and famous for its art, literature, and science.
The Soviet occupation of the former and the Allied occupation of the latter helped to entrench these comparative differences and delay the inevitable integration of both these cultural sub-sets.Well, and as a Bavarian I wonder what do WE have in common with the Germans? Hamburg is super cool, but give me break - this is a different country. Going to Salzburg, otoh, is like being right at home.
Machine3000:
Being neither German or Bavarian I will have to bow to your superior knowledge and take your word for that.
However, 12 years ago I had the pleasure of taking a tour of both Germany and Austria. I found both to be fascinating countries. Loved the people, food, and scenery. Seeing the fire blackened historic buildings in Dresden however was a reminder of what a bunch of stupid fools humans are with their senseless wars.
As Mr Churchill said...its better to jaw-jaw than to war-war...and he should know.
Best Regards.I always thought that the buildings were blackened because of the war too, until I learned that sandstone becomes black through natural environmental processes (oxydation). The new Frauenkirche will look like the other historical buildings in a couple of decades. Without ever having been licked by the fires of war it will have a black patina.
The commentary in many posts "amuses" me...............
As an official "old fart" who spent several occasions visiting relatives
in the DDR from the 1970's and having been raised on a diet of anti
Communist sentiment from the media and societal beliefs in general
throughout the 1960's, I reflect on the commentary below...............
(and the article itself)Apart from comments on Education and Childcare the comparisons being
made are all purely consumer capital based...............This is what I find amusing..............(in a sad sort of way)..............
For someone of my background, the issue constantly in our consciousness
were the lack of individual freedom and liberty in "the east".Whilst economic imperatives drove people to flee the DDR at considerable
risk to their lives and the difficulties it created for families/friends who stayed
the MAJOR motivator to escape (for people I knew) was the stultifying, controlled,
mono dimensional state inspired ideology and its day to day impact on anyone who questioned or was seeking knowledge of alternatives.This lack of "freedom" was the core issue for most, yet it seems comparisons of who
has the better washing machine or the largest range of junk food in retail outlets
seems to be the current yardstick of comparison.Maybe some social analysis of the intellectual ,cognitive and psychological wellbeing
of people then and now could be attempted ?or are we so inculcated into global capitalism that car and home ownership is all
that matters ?Naaa mate, I do think it was more about being allowed to say:"Honecker is a crappy parteivorsitzender" or "I really wonder if socialism is the best system around or whether the brd is handling things better?" without being reported by whoever was just around to report you and subsequently face massive repercussions. I know, it is hard to realise such things if you are romanticising a system that you chose to believe was superior to the one we live in, for whatever reason. I don't get it, but mate, the seventies are over, the RAF isn't around anymore, no one gives a shit about your admiration of realsozialismus and your weird anticonsumerism bollocks.
Johannes, thanks for the feedback......but you totally
misread my rantings..................Not only do I have no love of sozialismus real or other and especially
for Stalinist systems.....what I do have is a disappointment that
consumerism has moved from being an economic system to
being an ideology and that it seems to be supplanting humanism !
Kate why didn't you do your homework?
After all you're writing for The Guardian!1stly: re-unification means that two (more
or less equals) are coming together.In 1990, however, the "DDR Volkskammer"
decided to be incorporated into the area
of the "Grundgesetz of the Federal Republic
of Germany"!
"Incorporated"! That's certainly not the com-
ing together of "equals"!2ndly: wealth! How on earth could anyone in
an impoverished, bankrupt country could
amass as much wealth within 25 years where
its western fellows had about 40 respectively
65 years to do so?3rdly: How could any of the just about exis-
ting "East German brands" meant for appr. 16 m
people compete with brands established through
almost 40'years for some 65m West Germans?etc., etc., etc.!
On top of that there is no mentioning that in the
decades or rather centuries before only Saxony
could compete with states in West Germany!
The rest was mostly rural areas in the hands of
big land owners (Junkers)!Conclusion: your answering the question "How
united is Germany" is so flawed the way you pre-
sented it that it is a real shame!
(And if you just copied similar reports in German
papers, the shame is still on you!)p.s. wasn't it your revered Winston Spencer Church-
ill who quoted "only believe in statistics you did
yourself!"?I shouldn't imagine the Ossies would be very welcoming to the hordes of Muslims pouring into Germany. That's probably where the resistance will start for Merkel.
So who orchestrated this mass exodus of "migrants" into Europe? Apart from Merkel's invitations, of course, but that, on its own, could not have triggered millions and millions of very well informed, almost exclusively young men to flock to Germany.
"...only 6,4% of all tweets with “#RefugeesWelcome”+Germany came from Germany itself. Almost half of them were originated from UK, USA and Australia! Looks like your remote planetmates are blushlessly inviting guests to visit your home without inquiring your opinion beforehand!"
As a recent arrival in Jena, I am curious to find the source for the claim that Jena is the sole eastern representative on the list of the 20 most prosperous German cities. How is prosperity measured? Finally, am I correct in presuming that Berlin is not counted as an eastern city in this measure?
m
Dresden here.
Looks OK from my point of view.