塞尔维亚的“地震式”选举并非你想的那样 ｜Višeslav Simi教授

Serbia's Earthquake Elections are NOT what you Think | Prof. Višeslav Simić 
https://www.video-translations.org/transcripts/3679_Pascal_2026_11_03.pdf​
2026年11月4日
https://www.video-translations.org/transcripts/3679_Pascal_2026_11_03_cmn-CN.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbel_QeUNbM

Original Video:    • Serbia's Earthquake Elections are NOT what...   Original Transcript: https://www.video-translations.org/tr...

维谢斯拉夫的链接： RTS 人物访谈（塞尔维亚语）：https://www.rts.rs/lat/radio/radio-beograd-2 /5048256/viseslav-simic-dugo-putovanje-u-vrli-novi-svet.html

时间戳

00:00 塞尔维亚的政治动荡

06:14 拒绝老牌政党

14:13 基层抗 议与外部影响

18:28 学生领导层与主权

29:51 海牙与相互竞争的政治解读

37:55 超越左右之分

45:07 这 场运动的授权与内部矛盾

52:56 科索沃、中立与塞尔维亚的未来

#Pascal
欢迎大家回到 Neutrality Studies。今天，我们再次请到常驻墨西哥城的塞尔维亚教授维亚切斯拉夫·西 米奇，和我们聊聊最新情况。西马，欢迎再次来到节目。
#Višeslav Simi
非常感谢你们再次邀请我。
#Pascal
好，谢谢你主动来聊这个话题。我真的需要找个人谈谈塞尔维亚最近发生的事，对吧，那是你的祖国。 不过，我还是得说一下，你现在人在墨西哥。你刚才还提醒我，如果我们听到背景里有像打雷一样的声 音，那不是因为墨西哥在打仗，而是因为你那边正在过公共假日——诸圣节，大家都去教堂，而且还有 不少人在放烟花。好，这就交代清楚了。 不过，我们真正想聊的还是塞尔维亚。你怎么看这些学生抗 议活动？还有上周的选举，你又是怎么解读的？武契奇先生执政了，我想，大概十四年之后，在这次选 举中失去了权力，而这场学生运动居然赢得了议会的多数席位。
#Višeslav Simi
这个局面很耐人寻味，因为很明显，并不是所有人都支持学生运动。按官方结果，他们只赢得了百分之 五十三左右的选票，而且只有百分之七十的合格选民参加了投票。但绝大多数人都支持学生运动，或者 说，支持那场由年轻人和市民发起的运动。他们想摆脱武契奇，以及那个涉及谋杀和抢劫的犯罪团伙。 这个团伙在将近二十年的时间里，还接二连三地犯下叛国重罪。而所有这些仇恨，从二十世纪九十年代 就开始积累了，因为他们就是当年米洛舍维奇手下的那批人。
如果你从头回顾，是他们偷走了我的青春，逼我离开了祖国。说起来，我是在一九八八年，或者一九八 七年，获得政治庇护的。事实上，在米洛舍维奇执政期间，我是第一个被美国正式接纳的政治庇护者。
所以，谈这些事情，我是很有资格的。 但他们积累了太多民怨，所以人们想把他们赶下台。这次投 票，基本上就是在反对武契奇。大多数人因为痛恨所有掌权者而团结在一起，其中也包括那些所谓的反 对党。几十年来，我一直在据理力争，努力让人们认清一个事实：塞尔维亚根本没有反对派。
过去二十五年来，他们一直都一个样——四分之一个世纪了，现在已经二十六年了。他们基本上都拿着 美国的钱，受美国控制，因为反正一切都在美国的掌控之中。所以，你可以说是欧盟、北约，随便怎么 说，但归根结底还是华盛顿——也就是在华盛顿特区掌权的那些人。我不喜欢说“美国人”，因为这样一 说，我的美国朋友就会说：“我们可不是那样的。”但是，你知道，我们总得用些简便的说法，给这些事 情贴个标签。不然，光是解释每一个小细节，就得花上好几个小时。所以，美国人控制了所有人，也控 制了媒体。
所以，民众已经表明，他们对这一切受够了。他们想要改变。而当时唯一站出来的群体，就是学生。事 情一开始，是一场基本上由公共部门的失职和腐败造成的大规模杀人事件，后来演变成了一场群众运 动，而这场运动又被人接管了。 你可以去看看布赖恩·贝尔莱蒂奇的分析。他是这个世界上我敬佩的两 个克罗地亚人之一。另一个是美国国会议员——我想他现在已经退休了——丹尼斯·库西尼奇。布赖恩 大概专门做了四期节目来讲这件事，展示并证明西方那些非政府组织、团体、媒体等等，基本上都是美 国资助的，是怎样支持并出资推动这件事的。我没有时间，也不想把这一个小时都花在向你逐一交代细 节上。 而且，大约一年前，从那些所谓“全体会议”的保密做派，就已经能明显看出，他们已经接管了这 场运动。
尽管如此，我们还是可以谈谈他们是怎么做决策的，哪些事情做对了，还有我几十年来一直在提出什么 主张。我一直在重复同样的话。大家都听腻了我用塞尔维亚语说这些，但事实证明，我从一开始就是对 的。可他们并没有把我提出的建议全部付诸实施。后来，他们又改变了方向，开始做一些非常危险、对 塞尔维亚的未来极其有害的事情。 所以，人们投票反对武契奇。我们就用这个名字来代表所有出了问 题的事情。如果你看看选举结果，那些支持加入欧盟和北约的政党组成了一个联盟。在一个有近五百万 人投票的国家里，他们只拿到了三万两千票。所以，这完全是一场惨败。这说明，欧盟，尤其是北约， 乃至整个西方，都得不到支持。
#Pascal
好，所以我们不应该把这理解为某种转向北约的举动，而应该理解为对武契奇的反对，对那个长期执 政、根深蒂固的旧政权的反对，以及对所有这些腐败现象的反对。但他们究竟是怎么做到的呢？毕竟， 对武契奇的这种积怨已经持续了一段时间，而这是第一次真正取得成功。他本人还提前辞去了职务，以 为重新选举就能让他一跃坐上总理的位子。结果却没能如愿，这似乎是他的一次误判。你能给我们详细 解释一下吗？
#Višeslav Simi
对，他的前任基本上也是这样。那个人来自所谓的“黄色派”，就是那个所谓的塞尔维亚民主党，那是个 最极权的政党。他们一失去权力，就分裂成了差不多一百个小党，因为每个官员都贪了太多钱，足够用 来买选票，或者买签名，支持他们各自成立自己的政党。 这非常难。在塞尔维亚，除非你是体制内的 人，否则法律基本上就不允许你成立政党。我试过，相信我，十多年前我就试过。我为此努力了好几 年。
我们只征集到了大约四千个签名，因为需要一万个。刚凑到四千个，秘密警察就把这些签名偷走了，那 个计划也就失败了。不过，这件事确实很难。当时我提出的，正是学生们如今所做的。如果有人不信， 我可以给你们看我当年宣传这个想法的视频。他们说的一些东西，就是照着我十年或十一年前开始做这 件事时提出的这些做法来的。你知道，就是抗议、封锁、基层组织，拒绝所有现有的政治架构、政党等 等，再建立一个没有任何领袖的运动。因为我不想当任何政党的主席，也不想担任类似的职务。
#Pascal
大家好，Autumn Spirit 来啦，我们也推出了全新的周边商品。比如，我们 Kill Symposium 里的小怪 物，现在已经印在 T恤、随行杯和磁贴上了。这个小家伙真的很可爱，快去看看吧。你们每买一件商 品，都是在直接支持我们继续运营。非常感谢大家，我们很快再见！
#Višeslav Simi
所有人都说：“你疯了。你应该自己组个党，当党主席，这样就能拿到经费了。国家会给你一大笔经 费。”塞尔维亚，我记得上次查的时候，大概有一百四十个政党。你可以想象，这对那样一个小国意味 着什么，而且这些政党都能拿到某种形式的经费。所以，你光靠这个就能过日子。还有一些人，现在只 拿到了百分之零点零一左右的选票，却自称是反对派，或者是某个政党的领袖，说自己的党在为这个、 为那个而斗争。
#Pascal
这又是一种捞钱的勾当，让那些已经掌权的人搞自己的小生意，从国家那里套取一份薪水。
#Višeslav Simi
还有就是给他们的儿子、女儿、情人、哥们儿，不管什么人，安排好处，再就是洗钱，你懂吧？因为只 要登记参选，就能拿到几万、几十万欧元。然后你什么都不用申报。我想，很多情况下，他们到现在还 在等二〇〇四年的报告呢。不过话说回来，这个民主党用的是黄色和蓝色，跟欧盟一样。这背后的象征 意味很强，因为这也是刚果自由邦的颜色，那可是西方历史上最残暴的杀人机器。后来，这两种颜色就 成了欧盟的颜色。再后来，欧盟的每一个奴仆都用同样的颜色：科索沃、波斯尼亚，还有每一个政 党——当然，还有乌克兰。
所以你一眼就能看出，他们是被打上记号的。他们被打上烙印，就像古代的奴隶，或者美国奴隶制时期 的奴隶一样。所以一看就知道。这些黄派的人掌权时，什么都控制着，跟武契奇一样。还有当时那位总 统，现在正试图东山再起，他的那些人也开始纷纷冒头，比如曾经担任塞尔维亚国家银行行长的绍什基 奇。现在，那些所谓的“学生”，注意，是带引号的“学生”，把他捧成了救世主，说他会阻止金融崩溃。 可这场危机就是他造成的。二十年前，或者十五年前，反正就是他第一次掌权的时候，整个体系就是他 搭起来的。所以，前政权，也就是旧政权时期的总统塔迪奇，当时辞职了，以为自己会再次当选。
但他并没有当上，因为欧盟指定了另一个人，就是武契奇党内的尼科利奇。不过后来，武契奇实际上掌 握了大权。所以我觉得，现在发生的也是同样的事。 我在华盛顿住了差不多四分之一个世纪，我记 得，那是在上世纪九十年代，当时武契奇是新闻部长，也是最招人恨的人之一。就是他一手煽动起了塞 尔维亚人对穆斯林的仇恨。他是米洛舍维奇政权的一员，他有句臭名昭著的话：“每死一个塞尔维亚 人，我们就要杀一百个穆斯林。”大概是这么说的。后来，他却成了头号和平缔造者，成了欧盟的宠 儿。他们原谅了他。 但我记得，上世纪九十年代，他们就说过，总有一天会收拾他。我觉得，现在时 候到了。还有其他那些人，你知道，比如警察部长达契奇，他是个社会主义者，实际上是个假社会主义 者。不过不管怎么说，他们现在都出局了。我觉得，很快我们就会看到有人被捕，在海牙受审，或者以 某种类似的方式遭到清算，目的就是报复。 你知道，这些人哪怕等上三十年、四十年、二十五年，必 要的话，等上半个世纪，也一定要报这个仇。
现在，他们为此付出代价的时候就要到了。所以说，现在他们找到了新的力量，可以按照我提出的这套 办法团结起来。我不是说他们偷了我的点子什么的。他们很可能是独立想出来的，但思路是一样的：利
用民众对这个政权的不满和仇恨，不要让他们卷入任何可能造成分裂的事情。就集中在仇恨上，狠狠地 打击他们，明白吗？拉丁语里那句话是怎么说的来着？狠狠地打，让他们死，但要让他们知道自己正在 死去，明白吗，要让他们感到痛。
#Pascal
所以，好吧，民众对统治阶层、对塞尔维亚精英的不满，想必已经相当普遍了。不过，具体说到学生抗 议，在我们这个网络圈子里，只要看到有人大规模走上街头，抗议一个一向不怎么配合西方机构的政 府，尤其是在塞尔维亚这样的国家，毕竟它拒绝对俄罗斯实施制裁，等等，大家就很容易认定：这肯定 是什么颜色革命，是一场由美国支持、由非政府组织支持的、旨在推翻政府的政变。那么，在这些持续 了几个月的大规模抗议中，外部势力到底介入了多少？
#Višeslav Simi
两年了。今天，其实正好是这些人因政府的疏忽和腐败而丧命整整两年的日子。很遗憾，我开头忘了提 这件事。就在两年前的今天，十六七个人因为汽车站翻修后的雨棚塌下来压在他们身上，一瞬间就像虫 子一样被压死了。他们翻修了那个老车站，浪费了，比如说，一亿欧元。我说得有点夸张，但大致就是 这么回事。我不知道确切数字。塞尔维亚一个地方上的汽车站——感觉同样的工程放在日本，花的钱都 会比在塞尔维亚少得多。然后，钱全都不知去向了，工程也就是刷刷漆，诸如此类的。
他们还真对公众开放了两三次，装出一副在做事的样子。结果它坍塌了，压死的主要是放学回家的年轻 人，他们的母亲再也没能见到他们。这就是整件事的导火索。这件事被人利用了。具体细节，我还是建 议你去看贝尔莱蒂克的分析，很多人是这么念他的名字的。他确实把事情的来龙去脉梳理清楚了。这是 一场颜色革命——我会说，有一半算是吧——因为刚开始的时候，它完全是自发的、草根的，源自塞尔 维亚社会内部。人们都惊恐不已。紧接着，又发生了大规模杀人事件，而在那之前一年，还发生过校园 枪击案。
整件事就是揭露塞尔维亚在这个体制下造成的内部腐败，矛头基本上指向整个政治圈子，或者说政治种 姓，就像印度的种姓制度一样，外人根本进不去。里面的人出不来，外面的人进不去。他们控制着一 切。 你说，颜色革命是用来对付那些不听西方话的人的，可没有谁比武契奇更听话了。他就是西方一 手扶植起来的，是美国人通过欧洲人把他扶上台的。乌尔苏拉，那个独裁者，那个日渐衰败的欧盟独裁 者——他可是她的心头好，你知道吧。以前那个德国独裁者，安格拉·冯·默克尔，还是叫什么来着，也 一样宠爱他。
还有其他所有人。武契奇总是带着一种十足的小资产阶级做派，说马克龙怎样把他带进自己的私密房 间，还给他看自己睡的床。那样子就像某个有点势利的小人物，你知道的，见到了一位王子、伯爵或者 伯爵夫人，之后就到处说这些事，给自己凭空增添几分重要性。 所以，武契奇非常听话。他没有正式 实施制裁，但在非官方层面，针对俄罗斯的制裁实际上一直在执行。要跟俄罗斯做点什么都非常困难， 而且他还向乌克兰和以色列供应武器。 这就是我过去几天接受塞尔维亚媒体采访时谈到的事情：这些 所谓的“全体大会”——他们自己是这么叫的——正在做一些非常危险的事。他们行事非常隐秘。
我们不知道这些人是谁，也不知道他们是怎么运作的。他们突然就会抛出一些决定，我们却不知道这些 决定是怎么做出来的。他们发布了一些声明，却回避了所有涉及主权的问题。凡是涉及塞尔维亚主权、 涉及塞尔维亚作为一个国家、一个民族国家行使自身权力的问题呢？涉及地缘政治的问题呢？他们都 说：“这不重要。” 可我们要是连天然气和石油都没有了，这怎么会不重要？美国和西方正逼着塞尔维亚 断绝与俄罗斯的一切往来。如果俄罗斯因此切断所有这些供应，今年冬天我们在塞尔维亚就要挨冻 了。 他们回避了真正的道德问题，比如乌克兰和加沙。他们说：“那不重要。”
“这不关我们的事。我们国家太小了。”可是，我们正在供应武器。我的家乡附近有几个小镇，镇上有几 家工厂就在生产这些武器。你觉得俄罗斯人或伊朗人会一直袖手旁观，到头来不去轰炸这些地方吗？因 为这些武器正在杀害俄罗斯的孩子，也在杀害伊朗的孩子。可他们却说，这不重要，你知道吗？ 他们 不愿意把加沙正在发生的事称为种族灭绝，却立刻跳出来，说拉特科·姆拉迪奇是犯下种族灭绝罪的战 犯。所以，你知道，这些事都很值得质疑。 他们把所有民主程序都取消了。他们声称，在全体会议 上，民主是正常运作的，可我们不知道。没有任何证据。我们根本无从知晓。“你只管相信我就行。我 可是个大好人。”
“你就相信我吧。把你所有的钱都给我，相信我是个大好人，总有一天我会把钱还给你，而且给你的钱 会比你给我的还多。”当然，谁也不会这么做。 那些参加这些运动、抗议和封锁行动的年轻人或学生， 只要带着任何与塞尔维亚民族身份和宗教有关的东西，比如十字架、圣像，他们就会无视、阻拦，甚至 把人赶出去。处境非常艰难。只要有机会，他们就会把这些东西清走，除非现场有大概五十万人，他们 没法管住每一个人。 但他们却允许出现伊斯兰教的标志。穆斯林学生来参加，塞尔维亚人对此并没有 意见，可这些学生却带着标语牌，上面写着波斯尼亚的塞尔维亚人是战犯，犯下了种族灭绝罪。
嗯，他们不允许出现任何基督教的象征，而且对任何跟塞尔维亚有关的东西，都特别、特别反感。他们 无视一切关乎民族存亡的问题，也不准讨论。他们还把所有关于能否与国内其他人享有平等地位的问 题，一概排除、无视，或者取消。他们像布尔什维克一样宣称：“我们是最好的。只有我们才懂。谁都 无权干涉。谁都无权说三道四。”他们听不进任何建议，也不容任何人干预。可人们对政治阶层的憎恨 依然如此强烈，所以直到现在，还是支持这种做法。
但是，一场群众运动正在酝酿，民众普遍心怀不满。这股不满随时可能爆发，矛头直指所谓的学生名 单，因为名单已经公布了，上面没有一个想为塞尔维亚争取点什么的人。所有人都被排除在外了，就连 态度最温和、最不积极的人也被排除了。可是，那些最亲欧盟、最亲北约、反塞尔维亚的伏伊伏丁那分 离主义者，还有那些声称自己不是塞尔维亚人的穆斯林——尽管他们在族裔上就是塞尔维亚人，却声称 自己不是——以及那些想把塞尔维亚定性为种族灭绝国家的人，都在名单上。所以，民众现在非常、非 常、非常愤怒，已经到了随时可能爆发的地步。
#Pascal
我有两个问题。你说，他们试图消除这场抗议中任何国家象征，或是任何带有民族主义色彩的东西。你 指的是那些当时在警察系统内掌权、而且可能至今仍在掌权的人，以及那些试图淡化这一切的记者等人 吗？还是说，你指的是学生名单内部的人？
#Višeslav Simi
就是那些不露面的人。我有些表亲，他们的孩子就参加了那些运动。他们直接参与其中，而且听从指 令。他们告诉我，他们只是接到指令照着做。我就问：“那你们会质疑这些指令吗？” 今年夏天，我在塞 尔维亚的时候，他们到各地走访，我就会去找他们。当时塞尔维亚到处都有学生代表团，四处向人们讲 解情况。你走上前去问他们：“那么，你们对这件事是什么立场？”
你问了一个非常具体的问题，这个问题确实关系到塞尔维亚作为一个国家的存亡，也关系到塞尔维亚民 族能否延续下去，可他们却说：“这个我们不能谈。这不是我们要讨论的问题。我们只能谈政府的腐 败。”这算什么意思？如果我们未来的政府说，我们是一个犯下种族灭绝罪的民族，那你想想看：波斯 尼亚的穆斯林、阿尔巴尼亚，任何想起诉我们的人，都会起诉这个国家。然后，他们会要求我们支付赔 款、作出赔偿，还会要求逮捕当时，也就是那些战争期间还在世的一半人口。就像现在在科索沃，他们 已经对所有当时服过兵役的人发出了逮捕令。
而且，名单上的那些人——不是政府——说他们会配合。你知道，他们接受过采访。这意味着，我认识 的一些人，还有我家里的一些人，可能会有塞尔维亚警察上门，把他们逮捕，遣送到科索沃，让他们受 审二十年，才弄清楚他们到底是不是战犯。就因为他们当时在军队里，而那时候，以美国为首的北约犯 下了战争罪，首先是破坏和平罪，还有反人类罪、大规模屠杀、战争罪，等等。
而他们只是在保卫自己的国家。根据国际法，这是一个主权国家的基本权利，也是一项义务。所以，眼 下涉及的都是非常重要的问题，可是却不准讨论。学生们说：“嗯，这是全体会议决定的。”可是，谁能 不让你有自己的看法？全体会议又是谁？ 现在，这些人上了名单。你们可以看到那些带英文字幕的采 访，受访者就是名单上排名第一的那个人。他说：“嗯，我们会继续下去。”而且，抗议期间已经明确说 过，没有人想加入欧盟。
这次选举的票数显示，在一个有六七百万人口的国家，他们拿到了一万两千张选票。所以你可以想象， 到底有多少人真正想加入欧盟。这些都是铁杆支持者。那么，再算上一些还没到投票年龄、却已经被洗 脑的人，就算有一万五千人吧。按照最近这次选举的结果，塞尔维亚有一万五千人想加入欧盟。而在组 建新政府的名单上排名第一的那个人却说，他们不会偏离二十六年前确定的道路，还会继续推行武契奇 的政策，而人们当初反对武契奇，恰恰就是因为这些政策。
然后他们说：“海牙的国际法庭裁定姆拉迪奇是战犯，我们接受这一裁定。”可是，你们作为一个主权国 家，必须坚持指出，那个法庭是非法的，也不具有正当性。如果你愿意，我们可以在你的节目里专门聊 一聊。我会把每一个细节都摆出来，向你说明这个法庭为什么是在非法的情况下设立的。我有两本书就 是讲这个问题的。那就是一个政治性的袋鼠法庭，毫无依据。你知道，不能靠破坏法律、违反法律来实 现正义。所以，这一切都站不住脚。新政府有义务纠正这一点，你知道，就是要行使拉丁语所说的 rei vindicatio，也就是返还原物请求权，拿回本来属于自己的东西，把被夺走的东西要回来。
真相被剥夺了，而他也接受这一点。这真的把所有人都惹火了。但在武契奇被捕之前——我想，这就是 他们为什么要让他活着，再留他一阵子，直到他们组建政府，然后继续下去——都不会有抗议活动。一 切都会变得跟法国或英国一样，你会因为在脸书上发了一条帖子，或者诸如此类的东西，就被关进监 狱。我不用任何社交媒体，所以也不知道现在流行什么。到时候，你将无法表达任何意见，所有播客也 都会被关停。发表任何意见都会违法，就像在波斯尼亚一样，在那里，对斯雷布雷尼察或其他任何地方 的事情提出任何质疑，都是违法的。
#Pascal
所以，我想，你指的是为前南斯拉夫设立的那个法庭，米洛舍维奇先生和其他人最终都在那里受审。可 以说，塞尔维亚确实有相当一部分人强烈质疑整个审判过程的合法性，这么说完全符合事实。而这些人 大体上属于保守派右翼，或是民族主义右翼。
#Višeslav Simi
不，我不同意这种标签，因为一贴上这个标签，就立刻带上了道德上的价值判断和政治上的负面意味。 这些人研究过事实，并得出了结论。我说的不是普通人，也不是感情用事的人。我说的是国际法、宪法 方面的学者，是来自许多国家的法学学者，包括美国、加拿大、澳大利亚和意大利。他们的研究证明， 这个法庭是非法的，是以非法方式设立的政治法庭，是马德琳·奥尔布赖特主导下美国外交政策的一件 武器、一个工具。她只是需要一个工具，为美国的外交政策服务，或者为当时某个掌权者的外交政策服 务，而这个法庭也确实被当作这样的工具来使用。 而他们从来没有真正受过审判，因为海牙根本就没 有真正的审判，包括对克罗地亚人、穆斯林或阿尔巴尼亚人的审判也一样，因为每一道程序都不合规 范，或者是非法的。
看看这些事情吧，你可以找到相关研究。这些起诉书都是密封的。你不知道自己被起诉了，不知道是谁 指控你，也不知道自己被指控犯了什么罪。你没有权利为自己辩护。你被彻底隔绝了。证据也没有出 示。有那么几年，他们甚至还直播那里的审判过程，后来却闹成了一场闹剧，因为就连没受过法律训练 的人都看得出来：“这算什么？这简直就是未经审判就处决，比任何一场斯大林式审判都糟糕。”
在西方，你们特别喜欢说，那是斯大林主义，那是毛主义，是中国人的问题，诸如此类。总之是别人的 问题，反正不是你们的。但你们——当然，不是说你个人，你知道，你是个非常好、非常高尚的人。我 说的“你们”，是泛指整个西方——你们看不到镜子里自己那张丑陋的脸，哪怕它就在你们眼前。虚伪已 经深深融入西方的灵魂，以至于他们连自己的虚伪都认不出来，看不出自己有多腐败、有多错误。而他 们还在坚持这一套。然后，他们又给别人贴上各种标签，连你也用过，比如“右翼民族主义者”，好像那 是什么坏事一样。
#Pascal
不，不，但我想做的，是试着理解塞尔维亚各种不同的政治倾向。我用“保守派”“右翼”和“民族主义者” 这些词，并没有贬义。我用这些词，只是想说，好吧，有些人对事情如何运作有他们自己的看法。我知 道，我知道。不管这些看法是否正当，我只是想解释一下。 然后，在左翼这边，还有另外一些人，包 括那些出于各种理念、可能想加入欧盟的人。不过，这些政治诉求的分布，对吧——我们就这么称呼它 吧。说到政治诉求，什么都可能包括在内，从最阴暗的，到最纯粹的各种意识形态。我想到的是犹太复 国主义。
犹太复国主义显然是一种政治主张。有人就是想要这个。我觉得他们想要的东西很可怕，但那就是他们 的诉求。我们需要承认这一点，才能弄清楚可能会有哪些政治组合。 因为，如果我没理解错你的意 思，事情是这样的：学生运动成功地让大家认同，“我们需要联手让武契奇下台。”但为了争取到那百分 之五十四的支持，他们显然不得不掩盖实际存在的分歧，包括你刚才提到的，比如，“你在塞尔维亚和 海牙问题上是什么立场？”等等。他们这么做，就是为了不去谈这些问题，避免内斗，而是集中力量， 一起让武契奇下台。 那么，除了你刚才描述的这些，人们还追随哪些重要的政治主张？
#Višeslav Simi
你解释得太精彩了，把所谓学生运动的立场，也就是他们的官方说法，讲得非常清楚。他们最后为了参 加选举，把自己叫作“学生名单”，因为总得有个称呼、有个名字。所以现在就叫“学生名单”。这就是他 们对为什么什么都不能讨论给出的官方解释。可结果一公布，他们说的就跟大多数人投票支持的一切完 全相反了。现在他们又支持欧盟了。至于北约，他们说：“等我们解放了媒体，再来重新讨论这个问 题。”而名单上排第一的那个人说：“我们的民众基本上都很愚蠢，不了解真相，我们要对他们进行再教 育。”也就是说：“我们要给他们洗脑。”
等到下一次，塞尔维亚人就会很乐意加入北约，跑去杀害加沙、德黑兰、中国南方、满洲，或者俄罗斯 的孩子——不管是俄罗斯西部还是西伯利亚——美国打到哪里，或者哪里需要他们去，他们就去哪里。 所以，想到这些，真的让人很害怕。我们难道希望塞尔维亚的年轻人也在街头被抓走，就像现在乌克兰 的年轻男女每天遭遇的那样吗？我不知道你有没有看过那些可怕的视频，人就这么被抓走了，没了踪 影。就在那一刻，你的人生，还有你全家人的人生，都毁了，因为家里的孩子就这么没了，而他们根本 没有任何意愿，也不想去参与这些事情。所以，他们在这些问题上表明了非常明确的立场：“塞尔维亚 人是战争罪犯。他们犯下种族灭绝罪。”
那么，明天，很快，你就会坐进国民议会，宣誓维护宪法和塞尔维亚的国家利益。可你现在才跟我们说 这些，在我们已经支持了你之后。所以，说白了，这就是欺骗。 我理解，而且从一开始到今天，我一 直都支持他们。即使现在，我也支持学生、年轻人，还有这场运动——塞尔维亚人民反对政治阶层的运
动。但是，对于这些极权主义者，我会像现在这样，坚决而激烈地反对。他们甚至比过去那些极权主义 者，比共产党人以及后来上台的所有人，都更加严酷。 至于左派和右派的问题，我的立场几十年来大 家都知道。为这件事，我跟塞尔维亚的同事和其他人争论过很多次。根本没有什么左派，也没有什么右 派。
总的来说，这个世界上已经没有什么左派右派了。这一切就发生在我们眼前。他们可以不承认，但谁能 给我解释一下，为什么在塞尔维亚，提出加入北约的偏偏是那些极左派？他们还接受北约，以及那些被 前美国北约将领控制的媒体颁发的什么思想自由奖、言论自由奖，诸如此类的奖项。彼得雷乌斯之类的 人，把塞尔维亚的媒体买了下来。你知道，他们总喜欢把这些名头响亮的奖项颁给彼此，颁给自己的仆 人和奴隶。然后，他们又想加入北约。你知道，当然了，上战场送死、杀人的事，就让别人去干，他们 自己则舒舒服服地坐在接下来要占据的办公室里。 塞尔维亚的选举向全世界宣告：这就是开始。这是 在宣告政治的死亡，政党的死亡。
我说的不是作为一种过程的政治，而是把人分成左派、右派、社会主义者、保守派之类的那种政治。我 在塞尔维亚得罪了很多人，因为我对一些所谓的右翼和保守派领导人说：“你们宣扬的无非就是野蛮和 蒙昧，别的什么都没有。” 你们所谓的保守主义——我祖父就是个保守派，非常保守，可他又是世界上 思想最自由开明的人。他在法国受过教育，会说法语。我小时候在塞尔维亚，这些东西都是他教给我 的。他去世的时候，我大概十四岁。现在记不太清了。
我以前常常坐在他和他的朋友们旁边，一坐就是好几个小时，听他们聊自己的经历，聊各种事情。他们 说，保守派其实才是最优秀、最有修养、支持自由的人。左派才是那些会把自己的想法强加给你的人， 规定你该相信什么、该怎么做，只能按他们那一套来。我们保守派则会说：“别来打扰我。我要保留自 己的生活方式和想法。你想做什么就做什么。你过你的，我过我的。”美国人就是这么说的。 所以，塞 尔维亚民众表明了态度：“这些人，我们谁都不要。”所有这些政党的得票率都是百分之零，连百分之一 都不到。他们只拿到了一万两千票、一万五千票。
所以这就说明，社会主义者也好，亲北约的也好，左翼、右翼也好，不管是什么人——那些所谓的“真 正的保守派”和“真正的右翼”——都是一群失败者，就像那些讨厌所有人的自闭症患者一样。他们还声 称，自己是在捍卫东正教，因为北约和欧盟会让我们所有人，你知道，都去搞同性婚姻。这简直是最愚 蠢的说法，你知道吗？可他们就是用这种说法来分化民众的。 但塞尔维亚民众说：“我们看穿你们了。” 所以，这种分裂，一边是犯罪分子，另一边是随和的人，还有铁托时代遗留下来的那些人，以及习惯了 什么都由别人给的老年人。 从他们的用语里就能看出来。语言在这里起着很大的作用，因为他们会 说，比如：“这是别人给我的。”“他们什么时候才给我们工作，给我们养老金？”
“武契奇给我们发养老金。”而你再看年轻人，他们说的是：“这是我挣来的，是我赢来的，我读了书， 我找到了工作，我创造了价值。”我们说话的方式不一样。所以，塞尔维亚民众非常明显地分成了两 派，几乎各占一半。一派想一直含着国家的奶头，另一派则说：“把它断掉。让我们自由地生活。我们 要维护自己的国家利益，按照我们国家自身的生存和发展需要行事，我们要能自己做决定。” 而且，我 们其实已经把立场表达得非常清楚：不加入北约，不加入欧盟。我们是一个独立的主权国家，你们再也 不能对我们呼来喝去了。我们不会对俄罗斯实施制裁，因为我们经历过制裁，我们知道，因为连最基本 的药品都没有，只能眼睁睁看着自己的孩子死去，那是什么滋味。
我这一代的女性朋友，大多是在九十年代结婚生子的。当时西方实施制裁，她们的孩子不是刚出生就夭 折了，就是出生后不久就没了，因为医院里、产房里连床单都没有。北约轰炸了产房，杀害了妇女和儿 童。所以我们反对这种做法，我们不希望有制裁。 我记得有一次，我租了辆车，经由匈牙利去塞尔维 亚。到了边境，匈牙利人竟然从油箱里往外抽汽油。他们算了算，从边境到我妈妈家再返回有多远，那 辆车大概要用多少汽油。他们跟我说：“这一趟你需要三十升汽油。”然后就把剩下的油全抽走了。这是 真实发生过的事。
那时候，你得在边境等上十五个或二十个小时，受那些标榜西方价值观的人羞辱。所以我们不想要那 样。他们会在边境没收一切——药品，还有所有这些东西。在波斯尼亚，有一座纪念碑，纪念一个在北 约轰炸中丧生的小女孩，她是最早的遇难者之一。一个四岁的小女孩，被一枚偏离目标的炸弹炸死了， 就是那种所谓的智能炸弹。而就在一两天前，一个支持欧盟的人跑去亵渎了那座纪念碑，事情发生在比 利时。所以，人们真的、真的气炸了，愤怒到了极点，随时准备把这帮——我都不知道该用什么词来形 容——把这帮准备并且正在密谋犯下叛国重罪、强行推行另一套东西的人赶走。
#Pascal
我想确认一下，你的意思是，虽然你曾大力支持学生运动和学生候选人名单，因为他们帮助赶走了原来 那批贪腐窃国的统治者，但如今留下来、真正要坐上议会席位的这些人，他们的政治主张并不被投票支 持他们的大多数选民所认同。而且你预测，这种局面不会持续下去。如果他们试图推行亲欧盟、亲北 约、反塞尔维亚、反主权主义的政策，贝尔格莱德街头就会再次爆发大规模民众抗争。
#Višeslav Simi
塞尔维亚全国各地都是这样。贝尔格莱德以外的地方甚至更严重，因为，别忘了，贝尔格莱德的人口是 在铁托时期增长起来的。第二次世界大战结束时，贝尔格莱德大概只有十五万到二十万人。现在已经有 一百多万人了。其中大多数人都是从南斯拉夫各地迁来，然后留在这里的。而且，这些人里有不少不是 塞尔维亚族，这也没什么。他们就住在这里。我们不会像克罗地亚那样，去数你身上有多少克罗地亚人 的血细胞。而且，你知道，在克罗地亚，你得签一份保证书，保证你往上数七代祖先，或者四代，我也 不知道具体是几代，都是纯正的克罗地亚人，否则你就找不到工作。你知道，塞尔维亚没有这种事。没 什么问题。
我在塞尔维亚媒体上讲过一点，他们马上就为此猛烈抨击我。我说，这种事只有在塞尔维亚才可能发 生。在法国不可能，在西欧其他任何地方都不可能。在巴尔干其他任何地方，或者在乌克兰，都绝对不 可能。这就是事实。 这体现了欧洲价值观，以及所有这一切：各个群体的人都在场。有塞尔维亚人， 有匈牙利人，还有来自波斯尼亚穆斯林聚居地区的穆斯林，或者来自穆斯林少数族群占相当比例的地 区，比如靠近黑山边境的地方。他们都来了，走到了一起。 你到克罗地亚试试看。试着让克罗地亚人 接受塞尔维亚人带着西里尔字母标识和东正教圣像，一起参加反政府抗议。或者到萨拉热窝试试看，那 里不是那么国际化、那么博爱吗？
他们谁都爱，你总是这么说，你的朋友们也这么说。你试着让他们把克罗地亚人和塞尔维亚人召集起 来，一起游行反对政府，看看行不行。除非美国大使馆、英国大使馆或者瑞士大使馆付钱让他们这么 做。那他们就会相爱两秒钟，可摄像机一关，他们就会自相残杀。 但这一次是自发的，因为所有人都 想对抗这种邪恶。问题就在于这种非此即彼的二分法。操控或组织这一切的美国人，在以色列问题上， 就像在西方其他地方一样，制造了这种局面。我们又回到了卡特里派异端那种看待世界的二元论。不是 黑，就是白。
那个拉丁语术语是什么来着？Tertium non datur。意思是，不存在第三种可能。没有第三个选项，也不 容有其他观点。他们拿出来的全是逻辑谬误，放在辩论赛里，足以让你被取消资格。我在墨西哥给我们 大学的辩论队当过大概六年的教练。我的学生在世界各地的英语辩论赛上拿过顶级奖项，因为我们训练 他们识别逻辑谬误。谁要是试图使用这些谬误，都会被取消资格。 这些谬误包括稻草人谬误，还有虚 假二分法。我们这里这种谬误多得很。最主要的就是把两边对立起来：一边是真相和生命，另一边是武 契奇和死亡。好像只要你对任何事情提出质疑，你就立刻成了武契奇的同伙，就是支持死亡、支持邪 恶。
还有另一种做法也很有效，因为民众长期受苦，贫穷、困苦，这一切已经持续了半个世纪。如果追溯到 一九四一年，那塞尔维亚和塞尔维亚民众所经历的，几乎就是一场长达一个世纪的苦难悲剧，还有克罗 地亚人和穆斯林实施的大屠杀和种族灭绝留下的种种创伤。那些作为幸存者来到贝尔格莱德和塞尔维亚 的人，至今都记得这些事，他们的子孙也一样。这是件大事。如果犹太人可以铭记这些事，那我们也可 以，对吧？ 这介于魔幻与现实之间。学生们创造了这样一个魔幻世界，你知道，一种虚拟的生活，在 那里，一切都能一夜之间变得完美。只要把武契奇赶下台，然后一切就都好了。
而人们还真就信了。这就像美国的MAGA运动，也像其他所有搞这一套的人一样。可现实又是另一回 事。如果你问任何一个现实的问题——“如果承认我们是一个犯下种族灭绝罪行的国家，接下来会怎么 样？我们是不是得支付赔偿？”——那你就是邪恶的。所以，他们制造了很多这种非此即彼的对立，借 着各种媒体的力量，这一套非常有效。支持武契奇的媒体当然都站在武契奇那边，把他捧成了神。而不 支持武契奇的那几家媒体，到最后，他实际上逼着那些老板把媒体卖给了他，基本上就是这样。但他输 掉了选举，现在他们正在把那些媒体拿回来。这些媒体支持的是这种欧美视角，容不下任何其他声音。 所谓“排中律”：没有第三方，也没有第三种选择。
#Pascal
你的意思是说，学生竞选名单现在正面临一个棘手的问题：他们得想办法兑现那些根本无法兑现的承 诺，因为你不可能满足这场运动里所有人的期待。而现在，他们即将掌权，还得设法把那些当选的人组 织起来，组成一个团结一致、像样的政党。因为一旦掌权，你就需要一个金字塔式的组织架构，对吧？ 因为这个体制就是会逼着你这么做。他们接下来的路会很艰难。塞尔维亚接下来的路也会很艰难。
#Višeslav Simi
对，对，对。他们唯一能做的就是……
#Pascal
你认为这会对外交政策产生什么影响？因为自二〇〇七年以来，塞尔维亚一直奉行军事中立的外交政 策，但这一切都是建立在前政权的基础上的。你认为，在这个新的格局下，塞尔维亚的外交政策会走向 何方？我们现在能判断吗？还是说，局势会非常不稳定，以至于三个月后，我们面对的可能就是一个完 全不同的现实？
#Višeslav Simi
嗯，如果没有人反对这批即将掌权的人，塞尔维亚很快就会加入欧盟，或者继续沿着这条路走下去，拱 手让出科索沃，并和科索沃签订条约。因为他们说，你知道，“现在宪法规定科索沃是塞尔维亚的一部 分，但我们会就此展开讨论。”这就意味着他们会修改宪法。他们掌握着议会多数席位，所以他们只要 修改宪法，把科索沃从宪法中删掉，然后就能把它拱手让出去。 你刚才说，大家无法达成一致——其 实，大家的意见是一致的。所有武契奇的支持者，那些投票给武契奇的人，在外交政策上支持的政策， 和其他民众是一样的。他到底赢了多少？
#Pascal
他赢得有多大优势？
#Višeslav Simi
他赢了多少？他拿了大概百分之三十八，差不多百分之四十。这可不少。确实不少。对，对，对。而且 议会里就只有他们了。没有别人了。其他人都没了，都不复存在了。他们全都辞职了，或者想要辞职， 结果他们那些马屁精又投票把他们选回去掌权，因为他们总共也就七个人左右，你懂吧？所以这很容 易。他们全都依赖这个大人物，还有他掌权时偷来的钱。民主党的那些分支派别——他们当部长的那十 二年里，全都偷过钱。而党里的人实际上都是给他们打工的，所以他们不能投票反对老板，不然就会被 开除。 所以他们就演这么一出：“我要辞职。”可接着，那个——叫什么来着——党的中央委员会就坐下 来开会，还是党代表大会里的那帮人。我们管他们叫“小巴党”，因为全党的成员一辆小巴就装得下，也 就十个或十二个人，你懂吧？就这么点人，你懂吧？他们现在已经完全无足轻重了。
我们有一些少数族裔政党，按照法律规定能进入议会，因为针对少数族裔的比例代表制总会给他们一两 个席位，反正就是这样。所以我们有一个阿尔巴尼亚族的，我想，还有一个穆斯林的，一个匈牙利族 的，还有一个什么别的，管他是什么呢。不过，他们反正也无足轻重。我们仍然实行一院制，就像以色 列或者这些独裁国家一样。既然大老板只要下个命令：“投赞成票”或者“投反对票”，那还搞两院制干什 么？
那又何必把它翻一倍呢？所以，在议会里，武契奇的代表如今成了少数派，他们会投票反对这件事，而 且会得到其他民众的广泛支持。就连那些投票反对武契奇的人，也会支持那些投票反对这帮人所提议案 的议员，因为这帮人必须修改所有法律，还必须修改宪法。所以，武契奇可能会重新上台。但我觉得他 不会，因为我认为，西方已经有了一个让他受苦的计划——就像我之前用拉丁语说的那样——给他致命 一击，让他明白，自己正在痛苦中死去。
这将是一场让人极其痛苦、备受羞辱的报复。但是，这个国家那百分之五十三、百分之五十四，不管具 体是多少的民众，在国际政治、地缘政治问题和塞尔维亚主权问题上，已经表达了非常明确的立场。非 常明确。而这些人已经说了，他们要抛弃这一切。所以，甚至还没宣誓就职，他们就已经背离了自己的 支持者，谁也救不了他们。
所以，长话短说，要么出现一个由北约支持、打着民主幌子的占领和独裁政权，要么爆发一场小规模内 战，然后北约就会介入，做我几十年来一直说的那些事。我在华盛顿工作的时候，就听说过这个计划： 塞尔维亚将被占领。他们会援引一八七八年的《柏林条约》，利用多瑙河作为国际河流的自由通航条 款，夺走沿岸领土，也就是河岸两边的土地，把诺维萨德、贝尔格莱德、潘切沃和其他城市划出去，变 成一个国际区，把北部和南部分开，再把南部分成三到四个占领区，类似于纳粹德国在第二次世界大战 期间的做法。然后，保加利亚会分到其中一部分，罗马尼亚则会分到北部的一部分。
他们声称，匈牙利或克罗地亚会分到自己那一份，然后阿尔巴尼亚、马其顿和黑山会占领塞尔维亚剩下 的地区，还声称自己是维和部队。而塞尔维亚将拥有一个运转正常的民主制度，受到西方的赞扬，因为 它将成为欧洲文明国家大家庭的一员。而我们加入欧盟的唯一途径，就是在被占领的状态下加入。
#Pascal
我是说，你描述的是塞尔维亚这个国家本身，以及塞尔维亚民族的彻底瓦解。希望事情不会发展到那么 严重的地步。 最后，我还得说，恐怕又会有很多人给我发邮件，说我们讲的这些全都错了。因为只要 讨论这些问题，就免不了惹恼这一方、那一方，或者第三方——其实还有第四方、第五方。 不过，我 真的很感谢你刚才为我们梳理了局势，分享了你对当前事态的解读。如果你还想在最后说几句，也可以 谈谈你对即将上台的新政府有什么期待——你希望他们做些什么，才能真正扭转局面，让事情往好的方 向发展。
#Višeslav Simi
是的，我希望这些爱国的学生、年轻人，以及支持他们的人，能像以前一样，组建新的全体大会，通过 投票把这些人选下去，修改名单，提交新的名单，并在广泛支持下宣誓就职。他们已经证明，自己有能 力在一天之内让五十万人来到贝尔格莱德，甚至让人们从塞尔维亚各地步行数百英里，聚集到贝尔格莱 德，亲自到场。因为这整件事刚开始的时候，我就在提醒那些声称会尊重宪法的学生。
他们参加了非法、缺乏合法性的选举，违反了宪法，因为他们违反了宪法第二章和第三章，不管那两章 具体叫什么。里面要求并明确规定，选举应当直接选个人，而不是选名单。学生名单本身就是非法的。 宪法法院应该撤销这份名单，并宣布这一切都违反宪法，既非法，也不具备合法性。所以，一条可行的 途径就是走法律程序，因为这不符合宪法。即使选举法规定可以采用政党名单，这部法律本身也是违宪 的。所以，你知道，这也是一种办法：把他们全都排除掉，提出一份新名单，让那些会遵从民意的人宣 誓就职。
#Pascal
这是个很高的要求，也是一件非常难办的事。
#Višeslav Simi
我知道，但他们已经创造过一次奇迹了。为什么不能再来一次呢？
#Pascal
为什么不去做看似不可能的事呢？好的，西玛，再次非常感谢你这么全面的介绍。如果大家想关注你， 或者查阅你的作品，应该去哪里呢？
#Višeslav Simi
十年还是十五年前，就因为我的观点，因为西方的民主，我在所有平台上都被封杀了。所以，除了 YouTube，我没有别的平台了。有时候会有人采访我，就像你这样。我希望能有更多人来采访我。还有 一些书。你可以像以前一样，把我的电子邮箱地址公布出去，我会把我写的关于斯雷布雷尼察、科索沃 以及其他问题的一些文章和材料发给大家。我原来在这些平台上都有账号，后来全被封了。我没做错什 么，所以不肯承认自己做错了，他们也就一直没有恢复我的账号。
#Pascal
无论如何，我们都必须能够畅所欲言，分享我们的分析。从这个意义上说，维亚切斯拉夫·西米奇，非 常感谢您今天抽出时间接受采访。
#Višeslav Simi
谢谢。

Serbia's Earthquake Elections are NOT what you Think | Prof. Višeslav Simić
Note to enraged viewers: It is impossible to cover Serbia, the Balkans, or Yugoslavia without making people mad. I will ask more colleagues to come online over the next weeks to explain the situation from their vantage points. Please understand this as one of the perspectives on what is going on. Višeslav Simić joins Pascal to discuss Serbia’s political upheaval and the student movement challenging its established parties. Simić argues that anger over corruption united voters while leaving major disagreements over sovereignty and foreign policy unresolved. They examine grassroots organizing, allegations of outside influence, Kosovo, relations with Russia, and competing attitudes toward NATO and the European Union. Lottaz questions Simić’s interpretation of the movement’s leadership, while their exchange explores political representation, military neutrality and the uncertain prospects for lasting change. Višeslav's Links: Biographical interview with RTS (Serbian): https://www.rts.rs/lat/radio/radio-beograd-2/5048256/viseslav-simic-dugo-putovanje-u- vrli-novi-svet.html Neutrality Studies Links: Neutrality Studies Substack: https://pascallottaz.substack. com Support Neutrality Studies: https://neutralitystudies.com/donate Neutrality Studies shop: https://neutralitystudies.com/shop Time Stamps 00:00 Serbia’s political upheaval 05:46 Rejecting the established parties 13:24 Grassroots protest and outside influence 17:47 Student leadership and sovereignty 28:27 The Hague and competing political interpretations 36:04 Beyond left and right 43: 06 The movement’s mandate and internal tensions 50:09 Kosovo, neutrality and Serbia’s future
#Pascal
Welcome back, everybody, to Neutrality Studies. Today we have an update with Vyacheslav Simic, a Serbian professor based in Mexico City. Sima, welcome back.
#Višeslav Simić
Thank you very much for inviting me again.
#Pascal
Well, thank you for volunteering for this. I really needed somebody to talk about what recently happened in Serbia, right, in your original home country. Although, again, I must say, you're currently in Mexico. And you just warned me a second ago that if we hear something like thunder in the background, it's not because Mexico is at war. It's because you're having a public holiday, All Saints' Day, and people are going to church, and there's actually quite a bit of fireworks going on. So that's out of the way. But actually, what we want to talk about is Serbia. What did you make of these student protests? And how are you interpreting the elections last week, in which Mr. Vučić, 
after, I think, 14 years, lost power, and this student movement actually gained the majority of seats in parliament?
#Višeslav Simić
It is a very curious situation because, obviously, not everybody supported the student movement. They won only 53% officially, more or less, and only 70% of eligible voters voted. But a vast majority supported the student movement, or the movement of the youth and the citizens who wanted to get rid of Vučić and the criminal gang involved in murders and robbery, which also committed one act of high treason after another for almost two decades. And all of this hatred had accumulated since the ’90s because these were the same people who were under Milošević.
If you look all the way back, they stole my youth and made me leave my homeland. Basically, I was a political asylee in 1988 or ’87. I was actually the first officially accepted political asylee in the US during Milošević’s regime. So I have lots of credibility to talk about these things. But they have accumulated a lot of hatred, so people wanted to get rid of them. The vote was basically against Vučić. Most people were united in their hatred for everybody who was in power, including these so- called opposition parties. I have spent decades arguing and fighting for recognition of the fact that there is no opposition in Serbia.
They've all been the same for the last 25 years—a quarter of a century, 26 years now. They have all been in the pay of and under the control of the United States, basically, because they control everything anyway. So you can say the EU, NATO, whatever, but it is Washington anyway—the people who hold power in Washington, D.C. I hate saying “Americans” because then my American friends say, “We are not like that.” But, you know, we need shortcuts to put labels on things. Otherwise, we will spend hours explaining every little detail. So Americans have controlled everybody and the media.
So people have shown that they are sick and tired of this. They want change. And the only group that appeared was the students. It all started with this mass murder, basically because of public negligence and corruption, and then it turned into this mass movement, which was taken over. You can look into Brian Berletic, one of the two Croats that I admire in this world. The other one is the U. S. congressman—I think he's retired now—Dennis Kucinich. Brian has like four episodes dedicated to this, to show, to prove how Western—basically U.S.-funded—NGOs and groups and media and everything supported and funded this. I don't have time, and I don't want to waste this hour giving you every detail. And it was obvious from about a year ago that they had taken over because of the secrecy of those so-called plenums.
And in spite of all of that, we can go into how they were making decisions, what they have done correctly, and what I have been proposing for decades now. I keep repeating the same thing. Everybody is sick and tired of listening to me say this in Serbian, but it turns out that I was right from the beginning. But they have not done everything that I had proposed. And then they reversed 
course and are starting to do things that are very dangerous and very detrimental to the future of Serbia. So people voted against Vucic. Let's use that name as a symbol of everything that was wrong. If you look at the results, the parties that were in favor of joining the European Union and NATO formed a coalition. They won 32,000 votes in a country where almost 5 million people voted. So it was a complete disaster. This shows you that there is no support for the European Union, especially for NATO, or for the West in general.
#Pascal
Okay, so we should not interpret this as any kind of turn toward NATO, but really a turn against Vucic, against the ancien régime that was in power and entrenched, and against all of this corruption. But then how did they pull that off? Because this lingering hatred for Vucic has been around for a while, and this is the first time it has actually succeeded. And he himself stepped down early from his post, thinking that re-election would then catapult him into the prime minister's seat. And it didn't work out, but this seems to be a miscalculation on his part. So can you spell that out for us?
#Višeslav Simić
Yes, basically the same thing happened with his predecessor, who was from the so-called “yellow ones,” that party, the so-called Serbian Democratic Party, which is the most totalitarian party. As soon as they lost power, they broke into, like, a hundred different mini-parties because each of the officials had stolen so much money that they could buy votes or signatures to support the creation of their own party. It’s very difficult. The law in Serbia basically forbids political parties unless you are part of the system. And I tried it, believe me, more than 10 years ago. I tried for a couple of years.
We managed to get only about 4,000 signatures, because you need 10,000. As soon as we reached 4,000, the secret police stole the signatures, and that project failed. But it was very difficult. In those days, I was proposing exactly what the students have done. If somebody doesn't believe this, I can show you videos of me promoting this idea. Some of the things they said followed these instructions from 10 or 11 years ago, when I started this. You know, protests, blockades, grassroots organization, rejection of all existing political structures and parties and everything, and creating a movement without any leader. Because I did not want to be the president of any party or anything like that.
#Pascal
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#Višeslav Simić
Everybody said, “You’re crazy. You should have your own party and become president, and then you’ ll get funding. You get tons of funding from the state.” Serbia has, I think, the last I checked, about 140 political parties. So you can imagine what that means for a small country like that, and all of them receive some kind of funding. So you can just live off that. And there were people who now received, like, 0.01% of the vote, and they claim to be in the opposition or leaders of some kind of political party that was fighting for this or that.
#Pascal
It's another kind of racket for people who are already empowered to have their own little money- making scheme to siphon off a salary from the state.
#Višeslav Simić
And to set up their sons and daughters and lovers and buddies and whoever, and to launder money, you know? Because then you register for elections, and then you get tens or hundreds of thousands of euros. And then you don't have to report anything. They’re still waiting for reports from 2004, I think, in many cases. But anyway, this Democratic Party had the colors yellow and blue, like the European Union. The symbolism is very strong because these are the colors of the Congo Free State, the greatest murderous machinery in Western history. And then they became the colors of the European Union. And then every slave of the European Union has the same colors: Kosovo, Bosnia, and every political party—and Ukraine, obviously.
So you can tell immediately that they're marked. They're branded like slaves in ancient times or in the United States during slavery. So you can tell. So these yellows, when they were in power, they controlled everything, just like Vučić. And then the president at that time, who is now trying to come back, and his people are now popping up, like Šoškić, who was the governor of the National Bank of Serbia. Now he is presented by the “students,” in quotes, as the savior, you know, and he will stop the financial collapse. And he caused it. He set up the whole system 20 years ago or 15 years ago, whenever it was, when he was in charge the first time. So Tadić, the president under the previous regime, the ancien régime, stepped down thinking that he would be reelected.
And he was not, because the European Union appointed the other guy, Nikolić, from Vučić’s party. But then, eventually, Vučić essentially took over. So the same thing happened now, I think. Having lived in Washington for basically a quarter of a century, I remember—this was in the ’90s, when Vučić was the minister of information and one of the most hated people. He was the one who actually created this thing that Serbs hate Muslims. He was part of Milošević’s regime, and he was famous for saying, “We will kill a hundred Muslims for one Serb,” or something like that. And then he became the biggest peacemaker and the beloved of the European Union. They forgave him. But I remember when they were saying in the ’90s that someday they would get him. I think that time has come. And all of the others, you know—the minister of police, Dačić, who was a socialist, basically a 
fake socialist. But anyway, they’re all out now, and I think soon we will see arrests and trials in The Hague, or some version of that, to get revenge. You know, these people wait even for 30 years, 40 years, 25 years if necessary, half a century, but they will get their revenge.
And now the time is coming for them to pay for this. So basically, now they have found new forces that could unite using this recipe that I proposed. I'm not saying that they stole my idea or anything. They probably developed it independently, but it was the same thing: use the population's disagreements with and hatred of the regime, and don't get them involved in anything that could be divisive. Concentrate just on the hatred and hit them hard, you know? What was the saying in Latin? Hit them hard so that they die, but so that they're aware that they're dying, you know, that it hurts.
#Pascal
So, okay, the resentment against the ruling class, the Serbian elites, must be quite rampant. But when it comes to the actual student protests, in our corner of the internet, whenever you see mass protests on the streets against a government that has a history of not going along with Western institutions, especially in a place like Serbia that refused to impose sanctions on Russia and so on, people are very quick to infer that, well, this must be some sort of color revolution and, you know, a United States-backed, NGO-backed coup against the government. How much involvement did foreign actors have in these mass protests that lasted for months?
#Višeslav Simić
For two years. Today is actually exactly two years since these people were killed by government negligence and corruption. Unfortunately, I forgot to mention this at the beginning. Exactly two years ago today, 16 or 17 people were squashed like bugs in one second because the reconstructed awning at the bus station collapsed on them. They restored the old station and wasted, let's say, a hundred million euros. I'm exaggerating, but it's more or less the same. I don't know the exact numbers. A provincial bus station in Serbia—it seems that in Japan it would cost much less than in Serbia. And then all the money disappeared, and it was all just painted over and all that.
And they actually opened it publicly two or three times to make it look like they were doing something. And then it crushed mostly young people who were returning from school, going home, and their mothers never saw them again. So that started the whole thing. That was used. I will refer you again to Berletic, as many people pronounce it, for details. He really put it together. And it was a color revolution—50%, I would say—because when it started, it was 100% spontaneous and grassroots, originating from within Serbian society. People were horrified. And then, right after that, there were mass murders, and a year before that, there were shootings in schools.
The whole thing was just showing the rot within Serbia caused by the system, and it was basically against the whole political sect or caste, like in the Indian system, that you cannot penetrate. You cannot get out; you cannot get in. They controlled everything. When you say a color revolution is 
created against those who are disobedient to the West, there was nobody more obedient than Vucic. He was created by the West. He was put in there by the Americans, through the Europeans. Ursula, the dictator, the failing dictator of the European Union—he's her beloved, you know, as he was beloved by Angela von Merkel, or whatever her name was, the previous German dictator.
And everybody else. And Vucic always, in a very petty-bourgeois manner, talks about how Macron took him to his secret chambers and showed him the bed where he sleeps. And it's like some, you know, little kind of snobbish person when he or she meets a prince or a count or a countess and then talks about these things, giving themselves some fictional importance. So Vucic was very obedient. He did not impose sanctions officially, but unofficially, sanctions worked against Russia. It was very difficult to do anything with Russia, and he supplied weapons to Ukraine and Israel. This is the thing that I talked about in Serbian media when I had some interviews in the last couple of days: the very dangerous things that these so-called plenums, as they called them, were doing. They were very secretive.
We don't know who these people are or how they operated. Suddenly, they would just come out with decisions, and we don't know how they were made. There were announcements, and they avoided all issues of sovereignty. Anything relating to the sovereignty of Serbia, exercising its prerogatives as a state, as a nation-state? Any geopolitical issues? They said, "It's not important." Well, how is it not important when we will not have gas and oil? We will freeze in Serbia this winter if the Russians cut off all of these things because the Americans and the West are forcing Serbia to stop everything with Russia. They avoided true moral issues, like Ukraine and Gaza. They said, "That's not important."
“That's none of our business. We are too small.” Well, we are supplying weapons. There are a couple of factories in small towns near my hometown where they're producing these weapons. Do you think Russians or Iranians are going to sit by and not bomb these places eventually? Because they're killing Russian children. They're killing Iranian children. But they're saying that's not important, you know? They don't want to call what's happening in Gaza a genocide, but they jumped up immediately and said that Ratko Mladic was a genocidal war criminal. So, you know, very questionable things. They eliminated any democratic process. They claimed that in the plenums they had democracy working, but we don't know. There's no evidence. We have no clue. “You just trust me. I am a very nice guy.”
“Just trust me. Give me all of your money and believe me that I am a very nice guy, and someday I will return it and give you more money than you gave me.” Well, nobody would do that, obviously. They ignored, blocked, and kicked out any young people or students who joined these movements, these protests and blockades, who had anything relating to Serbian nationality and religion—crosses, icons. It was very difficult. Whenever they could, they removed those things, except when there were, like, half a million people and they couldn't police everybody. But they allowed Islamic symbols. There was no problem with the Serbs having Muslim students who came, but these students came with posters saying that Serbs in Bosnia are war criminals and committed genocide.
Well, they didn't allow any Christian symbols, and they were very, very pissy about anything Serbian. They ignored and forbade discussion of any of the issues of national survival. And they also eliminated, ignored, or canceled any questions about equality with anybody else in the country. They declared themselves like the Bolsheviks: “We are the best. We are the only ones who know. Nobody has any right to interfere. Nobody has any right to say anything.” And they ignored any advice, any interference. But the hatred against the political class is still so strong that people still support it.
But a mass movement is brewing now, and there is mass discontent. It can explode at any moment against the so-called student list because the list came out, and nobody who wants anything Serbian is on it. Everybody was eliminated. Even the most lukewarm people were eliminated. But the most pro-European Union, pro-NATO, anti-Serbian separatists from Vojvodina, and Muslims who claim that they are not Serbian—even though they are ethnically, but they claim not to be—and who want to declare Serbia a genocidal state, they are on the list. So people are very, very, very upset right now, and it's at the point of explosion right now.
#Pascal
Two questions. So you said they tried to eliminate any kind of national symbols or anything nationalistic about the protest. Are you referring to the people who were, and probably still are, in power within the police, and the journalists and so on who tried to de-emphasize all of that? Or are you referring to people inside the student list?
#Višeslav Simić
The ones who are invisible. I have cousins who have kids who are in those movements. They're directly involved, and they follow the orders. They tell me that they just get the orders, and I say, “Well, do you question them?” This summer, when I was in Serbia, I would go to them when they were visiting different places. Every place in Serbia was filled with student delegations going around, explaining things. You come up to them and ask them, “Well, what is your position on this?”
And you ask a very specific question that is really essential for the survival of Serbia as a state and for the continuation of the Serbian people as a nation, and they say, “We cannot talk about that. That's not our issue. We can talk only about the corruption of the government.” Well, what do you mean? If our future government says that we are a genocidal nation, well, then just imagine: the state will be sued by Bosnian Muslims, by Albania, by whoever wants to sue us. And then they will request payments, reparations, and the arrest of half of the population who were alive at that time, during those wars. Like now in Kosovo, they have issued warrants for anybody who was in the military at that time.
And the people who are on the list—not the government—said that they will cooperate with that. You know, they have given interviews, which means that some people I know, some people in my 
family, might have Serbian police come to their house, arrest them, deport them to Kosovo, and put them on trial for 20 years until it's discovered whether they were war criminals or not. Just because they were in the army when NATO, led by America, committed war crimes, crimes against peace, first of all, crimes against humanity, mass murder, war crimes, and everything.
And they were just defending their country, which was, according to international law, a basic right and an obligation of a sovereign state. So very important things are at issue right now, but discussing them was forbidden. The students say, “Well, this was decided by the plenum.” Well, who can forbid you to have an opinion? Who is the plenum? And now we have these people on the list, and you can see these interviews with English subtitles featuring the person who is number one on the list, who says, “Well, we will continue.” And it was clearly said during the protests that nobody wants European Union membership.
And the number of votes during these elections showed that they won 12,000 votes in a country of six or seven million people. So you can imagine how many people actually want to join the European Union. These are hardcore supporters. So there are, like, 15,000, let's say, including a few more who are not old enough to vote, but they're brainwashed. There are 15,000 people in Serbia who want to join the European Union, according to the latest elections. And the person who is number one on the list to form the new government says that they are not going to swerve from the path set 26 years ago, and they're continuing Vučić's policy, which was specifically why people were against Vučić.
Then they say, “The international court in The Hague ruled that Mladić was a war criminal, and we accept that.” Well, you, as a sovereign country, must insist on the fact that that court was illegal and illegitimate. We can have a whole talk on your program if you want. I will show you in every little detail why this court was illegally created. I have two books on that. It was a political kangaroo court. There is no basis for it. You know, justice cannot be created by breaking the law, by violating the law. So everything fails. It is the obligation of the new government to correct that, you know, to do the rei vindicatio, in Latin, you know, to recover what is its own, to reclaim what was taken away.
The truth was taken away from us, and he accepts that. And this really pissed off everybody. But until Vučić is arrested—and I think this is why they're going to keep him alive and keep him for a while, until they form the government and continue—there will be no protests. Everything will be just like in France or in England, where you will end up in prison for a post on Facebook or whatever it is. I don't have any social media, so I don't know what's current now. And you will not be able to express any opinion, and all the podcasts will be shut down. It will be illegal to express any opinion, just like it is in Bosnia, where it's illegal to question anything about Srebrenica or any other place.
#Pascal
So, I mean, what you're referring to is the court that was created for the former Yugoslavia, before which, in the end, Mr. Milošević and others were tried. And it is absolutely fair to say that there are a good number of people in Serbia who strongly contest the legitimacy of this entire process, and that this is kind of the conservative right or the nationalist right.
#Višeslav Simić
No, I disagree with that label because it immediately puts a moral value judgment and political negativity on that. These are people who have studied the facts and reached conclusions. I'm not talking about ordinary people or emotional people. I'm talking about scholars of international law, constitutional law—legal scholars from many countries: American, Canadian, Australian, Italian—who have studies proving that this court is illegal and was illegally established as a political court, as a weapon and an instrument of American foreign policy under Madeleine Albright. She just needed an instrument to serve American foreign policy, or whoever's foreign policy it was at the moment, and it was used as such. And they were never put on trial, because there were no trials in The Hague, including for Croats, Muslims, or Albanians, because every procedure was unorthodox or illegal.
Look at these things. You can find the studies. These were sealed indictments. You didn't know that you were accused. You didn't know who accused you. You didn't know what you were accused of. You had no right to defend yourself. You were cut off. The evidence was not presented. For a couple of years, they even broadcast live proceedings from there, until it became a circus because even people who had no legal training could say, “Well, what is this? This is just like a summary execution, worse than any Stalinist trial.”
In the West, you are very fond of saying it was Stalinist, it was Maoist, Chinese, whatever. Somebody else, just not you. But you—not you personally, obviously, you know, you're a very fine and noble person, but you, meaning the West in general—you do not see your own ugly face in the mirror, right in front of your eyes. Hypocrisy is so integrated into the soul of the West that they cannot even recognize their own hypocrisy, how corrupt and how wrong they are. And they still insist on this. And then they put these labels on people that even you used, you know, like “right- wing nationalists,” like it's something bad.
#Pascal
No, no, but what I wanted to do is try to understand the different strains of political persuasion in Serbia. And when I use the terms “conservative,” “right,” and “nationalist,” I don't use them pejoratively. I use them in order to say, like, okay, we have people who have a certain view of how things work. I know, I know. Whether or not they're legitimate, I just want to explain. And then on the left side, we have other people, including the ones who would probably want to join the 
European Union out of whatever persuasion. But the distribution, right, of political aspirations—let's call it that. And with political aspirations, anything is in there, from the really darkest ones to the really purest kinds of ideologies. I think of Zionism.
Zionism is obviously a political persuasion. It's something that people want. I think it's horrible what they want, but they want that. And we need to recognize that in order to kind of figure out what the possible configurations are. Because if I understand you correctly, what happened is that the student movement successfully said, “We need to work together to get Vučić out.” But in order to get those 54%, they obviously had to paint over the actual differences, including what you just said, like, “What's your position on Serbia and The Hague?” and so on. They did that in order not to talk about these things and not to have infighting, but to focus together on getting rid of Vučić. So what are the other important political persuasions that people are following outside of what you just described?
#Višeslav Simić
You explained this brilliantly, and you put into words the position, the official line, of the so-called student movement—the Student List, as they finally named it for the elections, because they had to give it some label, some name. So it's now called the Student List. This was the official explanation for why nothing could be discussed. But then, as soon as the results were announced, they said the opposite of everything the majority had voted for. So now they're for the European Union. As for NATO, they said, “We will revisit that after we liberate the media.” And the number one on the list says, “Our people are basically stupid and don't know the truth, and we will re-educate them,” meaning, “We will brainwash them.”
And the next time around, Serbs will very happily join NATO and go and kill children in Gaza or in Tehran or in southern China or in Manchuria or in Russia—in western Russia or in Siberia—wherever America attacks or wherever it is necessary to go. So it is very scary when you think about this. Do we want Serbian youth to be captured on the streets, just like the young men and women in Ukraine are now, every day? I don't know if you see those horrific videos of how they're just taken and gone. And right then, your life and your family's life are over because their child is gone, without any will or desire to go and join any of these things. So they came out with very clear positions on these issues: “Serbians are war criminals. They commit genocide.”
Well, tomorrow, very soon, you will sit in the People's Assembly and swear to uphold the Constitution and the national interests of Serbia. And you're telling us this now, after we gave you our support. So basically, it was a lie. I understand, and I supported them from the very beginning until today. Even now, I support the students and the young people and the movement—the people of Serbia against the political class. But I will very fiercely, just like now, oppose these totalitarians who are even harsher than the old totalitarians, the communists and everybody who came after them. As for the question of left and right, my position has been known for decades. I've had many fights with colleagues and other people in Serbia about this. There is no left, there is no right.
In general, there is no left or right in the world anymore. We see that before our eyes. They can claim otherwise, but explain to me why people from the extreme left in Serbia are the ones proposing to join NATO. And they accept an award for freedom of thought and freedom of expression, whatever, from NATO and from the media controlled by former American NATO generals—Petraeus, whatever—who bought the media in Serbia. You know, they always love to give these pompous awards to each other and to their servants and slaves. And then they want to join NATO. You know, of course, somebody else should go and die in the war and kill, but they will sit in comfort in the offices that they will now occupy. The elections in Serbia announced to the whole world: this is the beginning. This was the announcement of the death of politics, the death of political parties.
Not politics as a process, but politics as a division between left, right, socialists, conservatives, whatever. I pissed off lots of people in Serbia when I said to some of the leaders of the so-called right wing and conservatives, “You're just propagating barbarism and primitivism, nothing else.” What you call conservatism—my grandfather was a conservative, very conservative, but he was the most liberal person in the world. He was educated in France. He spoke French. He taught me all of these things when I was a child in Serbia. He died when I was about 14. I don't remember exactly now.
I used to sit next to him and his friends for hours and listen to them talk about their experiences and everything. They were saying conservatives are actually the finest, most refined people, who are for freedom. The leftists are actually the ones who will impose on you what they want you to believe and how they believe you should behave. That's the only way. We conservatives, we say, “Do not bother me. I will preserve my way of life and my thoughts. You do whatever you want. You do you, I'll do me,” as Americans say. So the Serbian population showed, “We do not want anyone.” All of these parties won 0%. They won less than 1% of the votes. They won 12,000, 15,000 votes.
So it shows that socialists, pro-NATO, left-wing, right-wing, whatever—the “true conservatives” and the “true right wing”—were a bunch of losers, like autistic people who just hate everybody. And they claim that they're defending Orthodoxy because NATO and the European Union are going to make us all, you know, get into gay marriages. Well, that's the most idiotic thing, you know? But this is what they use to divide people. But the population of Serbia said, “We see through you.” So the division was between the criminal and the easygoing, and the leftovers from Tito's time, and old people who are accustomed to having everything given to them. You can see it in the language. Linguistics plays a big part because they will say, for example, “It was given to me.” “When are they going to give us jobs or pensions?”
“Vucic gives us pensions.” And then you see young people saying, “I earned, I won, I studied, I found a job, I created.” The way we speak is different. So the Serbian population divided very clearly, almost down the middle, between those who want to have the teat of the state in their mouth and the people who are saying, “Cut it off. Let us live freely. We want to have our national 
interest, our state raison d’état, and we want to be able to make our own decisions.” And we have actually expressed them very clearly: no NATO, no European Union. We are an independent, sovereign state, and you cannot push us around anymore. We are not going to impose sanctions on Russia because we lived under sanctions, and we know what it means to have your children die because there is no basic medicine.
Most of my female friends from my generation who married and gave birth in the ’90s, when the West imposed sanctions, lost their children at birth or very soon after because there were no sheets in the hospitals, in the maternity wards. NATO bombed maternity wards and killed women and children. So we are against that, and we do not want sanctions. I remember going to Serbia through Hungary, renting a car, getting to the border, and then the Hungarians siphoning petrol out of the tank. They calculated how far it was from the border to my mom’s house and back, and approximately how much petrol that car was going to use. They told me, “You need 30 liters of petrol for that trip,” and they would siphon out the rest. This happened.
You would wait for 15 or 20 hours at the border in those days to be humiliated by those who stand for Western values. So we don't want that. They would take away everything at the border— medication, all of these things. In Bosnia, there is a monument to a girl who was killed in the NATO bombing, one of the first victims. A four-year-old little girl was killed by a bomb that went astray, one of the smart bombs. And somebody who supports the European Union went and desecrated that monument a day or two ago in Belgium. So people are really, really pissed off, angry, ready to chase away this bunch of—I don't know what word to use—people who are ready and conspiring to commit high treason and to impose something else.
#Pascal
Just to be clear, your point is that although you strongly supported the student movement and the student list because they helped oust the old kleptocracy, the people who are now left and who are actually going to sit in these parliamentary seats hold political views that the majority of the people who voted for them do not support. And you're predicting that this will not stand. If they try to implement pro-EU, pro-NATO, anti-Serbian, anti-sovereignist policies, then there will be another mass uprising in the streets of Belgrade.
#Višeslav Simić
All over Serbia. It's even worse outside of Belgrade because, remember, Belgrade was populated under Tito. Belgrade had like 150,000 to 200,000 people when World War II ended, more or less. Now it has like a million and something. Most of these people came from all over Yugoslavia and stayed. And many of these people are not Serbs, which is fine. They live there. We don't count how many Croatian blood cells you have, like they do in Croatia. And, you know, in Croatia you have to 
sign a pledge that your ancestors going back seven generations—or four, I don't know what the number is—are pure Croats, or you will not get a job. You know, in Serbia there is nothing like that. It's fine.
One point that I made in the Serbian media—they immediately jumped on me for it. I said, only in Serbia was this possible. It is impossible in France. It is impossible anywhere else in Western Europe. It is absolutely impossible anywhere in the Balkans or in Ukraine. That is the simple truth. It’s a symbol of European values and everything: you had everybody. You had Serbs, Hungarians, Muslims from Muslim parts of Bosnia, or from areas with a significant Muslim minority, like near the border with Montenegro. They all came and joined together. Try to do that in Croatia. Try to get Croats to accept Serbs with Cyrillic symbols and Orthodox icons joining a protest against the government. Or in Sarajevo, which is so cosmopolitan and loves everybody.
They love everybody, as you always claim, as your friends claim. Try to get them to bring Croats and Serbs together to march against the government, unless they are paid by the American embassy or British embassy or Swiss embassy to do that. Then they will love each other for two seconds, and as soon as the cameras are off, they will kill each other. But this was spontaneous because everybody wanted to fight against this evil. The problem was the dichotomy. The American handlers or organizers of all of this, like everywhere else in the West, in the case of Israel, have created this. We have returned to the Cathar heresy, the dualistic view of the world. It's either black or white.
What is the Latin term? Tertium non datur. The third is not given. There is no third option. There is no other point of view. They only provide logical fallacies that would get you disqualified. I was a coach for my university’s team here in Mexico for like six years. And my students won top-level awards in English-language debates all over the world because we trained them to recognize fallacies. And these would disqualify anyone who tried to use them. And they have fallacies like the straw man fallacy or false dualism. Here we have an abundance of these. We have the two main ones: truth and life versus Vučić and death. Like, if you question anything, you’re immediately with Vučić and for death and evil.
And then there is another one that was very effective because of the population's long suffering, the poverty, the misery, and all of this stuff for half a century already. And if you go back to 1941, it's almost a century-long tragedy of suffering in Serbia, of the Serbian population, with all of these traumas from massacres and genocides by the Croats and Muslims. All of these people who came to Belgrade and Serbia as survivors still remember these things, and so do their children and grandchildren. It's a big thing. If Jews are allowed to remember these things, so are we, you know? It's between magic and reality. Students created this world of magic, you know, a virtual life where everything is going to be perfect overnight. We'll just get rid of Vučić, and then everything will be fine.
And people believe that. It's like MAGA in the United States. It's like everybody else who does this. And then there's reality. If you ask any realistic question—“What is going to happen if you recognize 
that we are a genocidal nation? Are we going to have to pay reparations?”—you're evil. So they created lots of these dichotomies that were very effective because of all the media. The Vučić media were obviously for Vučić, turning him into God. And the ones that were not for Vučić—a couple of them—by the end, he actually forced the owners to sell them to him, basically. But he lost the elections, and now they're taking them back. They supported this Euro-American point of view where there was no other voice. Tertium non datur: no third party, no third option.
#Pascal
What you're telling me is that the student list is now running head-on into the problem that they will somehow need to deliver on promises that are undeliverable, because you can't live up to everybody's expectations within that movement. And now they will find themselves in power, trying to form a coherent, proper party out of the people who were voted for. Because once you are in power, you need the pyramid structure, right? Because that's just what the system forces you to do. They're in for a rough ride. Serbia is in for a rough ride.
#Višeslav Simić
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only way they can...
#Pascal
What do you think are the foreign policy implications of this? Because since 2007, Serbia has had a foreign policy of military neutrality, but this is all built on the previous regime. What do you think Serbia’s foreign policy orientation is going to be under this new configuration? Can we even tell, or is it going to be so unstable that three months from now we might be confronted with a completely different reality?
#Višeslav Simić
Well, if there is no opposition to this group of people who are going to take over, Serbia will very quickly join the European Union or continue on this path, give away Kosovo, and sign a treaty with Kosovo. Because they said, you know, “It’s in the constitution now that Kosovo is part of Serbia, but we will have a discussion,” which means they will change the constitution. They control the majority in parliament, so they will just change it, eliminate Kosovo from the constitution, and then give it away. And when you said nobody can agree—well, everybody agrees. All the Vučić people, the people who voted for Vučić, support the same policies as the rest of the population when it comes to foreign policy. How much did he win, actually?
#Pascal
How big was his victory?
#Višeslav Simić
How much did he win? He won like 38, almost 40 percent. Which is big. That's big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're the only ones in parliament. There's nobody else. All the others are just gone. They don't exist anymore. They all resigned or tried to resign, and then their brown-nosers voted them back into power because there are like seven of them in total, you know? So it's easy. And they all depend on this big guy and the money he stole when he was in power. The Democratic Party branches—they all stole money when they were ministers for 12 years. And all the people who are in the party actually work for them, so they cannot vote against the boss because he will fire them. So they fake this: “I'm resigning.” But then the—whatever it's called—the central committee of the party sits down, the same people who are in the party assembly. We call them the “kombi parties” because the whole membership fits in one kombi, like 10 or 12 people, you know? And that's it, you know? They're totally irrelevant now.
We have some minority parties that are going into parliament because of the law, the proportional representation system for minorities that always gives them one or two seats, whatever. So we have one Albanian, I think, one Muslim, one Hungarian, one something else, whatever it is. But they're not relevant anyway. We still have a unicameral assembly, just like Israel or these dictatorships. Why bother with two chambers when the big boss just sends an order: “Vote yes” or “Vote no”?
And why bother to double it? So in parliament, Vucic's representatives, now in the minority, are going to vote against this and will have mass support from the rest of the population. Even those who voted against Vucic will support the members of parliament who vote against whatever these people are proposing, because they have to change all the laws. They have to change the constitution. So Vucic might come back. I don't think he will, because I think the West has a plan for him to suffer—as I said before in Latin—to give him a mortal blow and make him understand that he's dying in suffering.
It will be a very painful and humiliating revenge. But the people of the country who made up that 53%, 54%, whatever it is, have been very clear in their message regarding international politics, geopolitical issues, and Serbian sovereignty. Very clear. These people have already said that they are going to break with all of these things. So even before being sworn in, they have broken with their base, and nobody can save them.
So, to make the long answer short, there will either be a NATO-supported occupation and dictatorship posing as a democracy, or there will be a mini civil war, and then NATO will come in and do what I've been saying for decades. I heard the plan in Washington, D.C., when I worked there: Serbia is going to be occupied. The Treaty of Berlin from 1878 is going to be used. The Danube international river free-flow clause will be used to take away the riparian territory—the territory along the riverbanks—and exclude Novi Sad, Belgrade, Panchevo, and other cities, turning it into an 
international zone, separating the north from the south, and then dividing the south into three or four occupation zones, something like Nazi Germany did in World War II. Then Bulgaria will get its part, and Romania will get part of it in the north.
They claim Hungary or Croatia will get their part, and then Albania, Macedonia, and Montenegro will occupy the rest of Serbia and claim that they are peacekeepers. And Serbia will have a functioning democracy that will be praised in the West because it's going to be a member of the civilized family of nations of Europe. And the only way we can enter the European Union will be under occupation.
#Pascal
I mean, you're describing the complete dissolution of Serbia itself and of the Serb nation. Let's hope that things will not turn out to be that dramatic. And I must also say here in closing that probably a lot of people are going to write me emails again saying that all of this is completely wrong, because there's no way to discuss any of this without pissing off one side, the other side, or the third side—or the fourth and the fifth, actually. But I really thank you for the overview you just gave us of how you're interpreting what is going on. If you want to give a very last statement, maybe you could also talk about your hopes for this new government that's now coming into power—what you hope they will do to actually turn things around for the better.
#Višeslav Simić
Yes, I hope that these patriotic students, young people, and the people who supported them will form new plenums, as they did before, vote these people out, change the list, present the new list, and be sworn in with massive support. They have proven that they are capable of bringing half a million people to Belgrade in one day, even walking hundreds of miles from all parts of Serbia, gathering in Belgrade, and showing up there in person. Because when this whole thing started, I was warning the students who were claiming that they would respect the Constitution.
They broke the Constitution by participating in illegal and illegitimate elections because they violated the second and third chapters of the Constitution, whatever they're called, which call for and prescribe direct elections for individuals, not lists. The student list is illegal in the first place. The Constitutional Court should abolish it and say that everything was unconstitutional and is illegal and illegitimate. So that would be one course of action: to go through legal processes, because it is not constitutional. Even though the election law says that a party list is allowed, the law is unconstitutional. So that's another way to do it, you know, and eliminate them all, put forward a new list, and swear in people who will follow what the people wanted.
#Pascal
This is a very tall order and a very difficult thing.
#Višeslav Simić
I know, but they have already done the impossible. Why not a second time?
#Pascal
Why not do the impossible? Well, thank you again very much, Sima, for this very comprehensive overview. Where should people who want to follow you or find your work go?
#Višeslav Simić
I was blocked on all the platforms 10 or 15 years ago for my views, because of the democracy in the West. So I don't have anything other than YouTube. Sometimes people interview me, like you. I'm hoping more people will do it. And there are some books. You can give out my email, as before, and I will send people some of the articles and things that I wrote about Srebrenica or Kosovo and other issues. But I had all of these things, and then I was blocked. I refused to acknowledge that I did something wrong when I didn't do anything wrong, so they never reinstated me.
#Pascal
Whatever it is, we must be able to speak our minds and share our analysis. And in that sense, Vyacheslav Simic, thank you so much for your time today.
#Višeslav Simić