输给日本是清朝的耻辱，不是中国人的？马凯硕采访新加坡教授，惊出一身冷汗

笔尖烽火M  2026年6月20日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-xZ8tIax1c

从晚清落后挨打到现代大国博弈，中国人的“屈辱感”究竟是如何演变的？ 本期视频深度复盘新加坡国立大学王赓武教授的顶级对话，带你重回历史现场！从圆明园的熊熊烈火、甲午战争的惨烈战败，到二战后《凡尔赛条约》的无情背叛，中国经历的不仅是地缘政治的割地赔款，更是被西方世界视作“异类”的深层文明羞辱。

为什么说当年的屈辱反而加速了满清的灭亡？美国在“百年国耻”中到底扮演了什么角色？从抗美援朝的钢铁意志，到基辛格访华的“联华抗苏”金融神作，中国如何在废墟中重新拼合国家自豪感。看懂历史的因果，才能看清当下中美博弈的底层逻辑！

@李蓉蓉-i6o 2天前

反清復明和日本侵華根本不可放在一起討論  王賡武沒有資格說有的中國人對日本人的侵略是認同的 這是胡說八道的言論 很可恥 把馬來西亞人的想法套在中國人的頭上 太無理無知了.

@hoboss-z 17分钟前

所谓继承，当然是荣耀和屈辱一起。

@roychat628 17分钟前（修改过）

我发现你们和马凯硕与王庚武的思维，是在不同的一个维度上。就如在平地上的赶路人与高峰上的探险者的分别。人家在高山上看到的是山地的全貌，你们所见只是前方的路途。这是深与浅的分别，真懂与不知的差别。

@gogogo1161  3天前（修改过）

清朝也是中國,清朝的耻辱當然也是中國耻辱,只有漢奸才會切割,否認,現在只要有人敢欺負滿洲人,漢人也會為他們出頭,我們是五族共和,昨天看台南古物,台南當年有設台灣相當總統府單位,四處都有皇帝公告條文石刻,可見清朝很愛台灣,台南當年就是台灣政治中心大都會.戰爭傷痕不少,台南當年是很威風地方,但年輕人被洗腦,聽旁邊年輕人交談很感慨,為什麼你們都不讀書,連自己故鄉都不認識,可憐。

@陳健生-n3g 29分钟前

當初 孫文的革命計畫有歐美日本民間的資助( 區分日本朝廷) . 而當時的"多數中國人"是不敢革命的. 否則當時用十次革命行動都撼動不了清朝勢力導致像秋瑾等革命人被舉報捉拿處死...? 中國人是被推著 ...建立新政府不是嗎?

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>

从颐和园焚毁到败于日本，再到义和团运动和义和团赔款，所有这些事件当然都是清朝的耻辱，但对大多数想要摆脱奴役的中国人来说，这些事件对清朝而言更是莫大的耻辱。这反而是件好事，它表明清朝的无能。他们犯了很多错误，比如他走得太远，一方面放松了警惕，另一方面却又大肆宣扬自由，结果导致了长达十年的屠杀，部分原因是当时社会风气过于松懈。

我们在权力下放方面也有些松懈。因此，后来他们不得不费尽心思地收紧权力，而党也因为过快地转向资本主义而腐败。他声称，有些人必须先于其他人致富。所有这些都误导了很多人，随之而来的腐败甚至在天安之前就已存在，一直延续到新平时期，而且愈演愈烈。

你好。我非常荣幸地欢迎各位参加今天与新加坡国立大学王刚布教授的对话。我们将探讨第一周课程中关于历史如何影响中美关系的议题，并重点讨论我们在课程中涉及的“百年屈辱”。

王刚布教授，欢迎您参加今天的讨论。正如我刚才所说，我将首先向您提出一个关于“百年屈辱”的问题。这段时期可能从1842年持续到1949年，对中国而言无疑是一段痛苦的经历，留下了深深的伤痕。事实上，就在2017年7月1日，习近平主席还表示，香港回归标志着中华民族百年屈辱的结束。我们知道，在这个充满屈辱的世纪里，发生了许多痛苦的事件，例如鸦片战争、圆明园被洗劫、1895年被日本击败、一战后德国在华领土上的背叛。您认为，这些事件中哪一件给中国留下的伤痕最大？为什么？

我想，这取决于你何时提出这个问题，以及你谈论的是谁。因为今天，当你……

2:28 2分28秒引用习近平的话，这是在美中关系紧张以及……关于……的各种分歧的背景下。

2:35 2分35秒以及中国人感受到的受到美国的威胁。而在其他时候，呃……

2:44 2分44秒这只是一个笼统的声明，并非针对任何人。

2:48 2分48秒现在，这很大程度上是针对中国人对美国对华政策的感受。

2:56 2分钟 56 所以它有一个目标，但在此之前它只是一个笼统的声明。

3:00 3分钟 嗯，然后你问有多少人真正感受到了。嗯，这差别很大，因为，嗯，当它发生在

3:09 3分钟 9 1840年代、60年代的颐和园大火，一直到战败给日本，甚至义和团运动

3:17 3分钟 17 还有义和团赔款，所有这些当然都是屈辱的，但对清朝来说也是屈辱的

3:25 3分钟 25 对大多数想要摆脱满清的中国人来说，这是一件好事，这表明满清没救了，他们没有，他们没有把中国的利益放在心上

3:34 3分钟 34 心系中国。他们为反抗满清的起义辩护，认为这些人应该被赶出去。

3:42 3分42那些与满清勾结的中国官吏也应受到谴责，因为他们试图支持

3:49 3分49一个失败的事业，所以这些外国人表明中国人落后、无可救药。

3:58 3分58我们非常贫穷，因为治理不善等等。所以从某种意义上说，所有这些事件都表明，是时候

4:07 4分7除掉满清了。所以从那些人的角度来看，这可能对清朝来说是一种羞辱。

4:15 4分15但这并没有以同样的方式影响中国人民，这是一件好事，因为它证明了他们接下来要做的事情是正当的。

4:23 4分23然而，在清朝被推翻之后，他们努力恢复与西方的良好关系，试图让西方……

4:31 4分31例如，重新谈判条约，取消诸如特权之类的东西，所有让中国人感到自卑的东西。

4:40 4分40以及他们对待中国人的方式，其中涉及的种族主义将中国人视为某种程度上野蛮和不文明的。这些

4:47 4分钟 47 事情变得更加伤人，因为换句话说，在他们摆脱清朝之后，西方仍然如此。

4:55 4分钟 55 对中国人的态度是，你们都要被教导如何举止，如何现代化，你们太落后了，当然，中国人

5:03 5分钟 3 决心迎头赶上，他们努力学习科学、政治制度和国际法，他们努力学习，但所有这些

5:11 5分钟 11 当时他们被对待的方式就像是，你们必须学习更多，你们必须做得更好，这才是真正的深深羞辱。

5:19 5分钟 19 那是什么时候？

5:21 5分钟 21 例如，从第一次世界大战前后开始，美国签署了条约SI事件是公开的

5:30 5分30秒国际社会普遍认为中国人受到了羞辱，而中国人实际上是西方的盟友。

5:38 5分38秒西方击败德国（当时的德意志帝国）时，中国人受到了羞辱。

5:43 5分43秒然而，在凡尔赛条约签订时，他们却允许德国在山东的领土割让给日本。

5:53 5分53秒这才是真正的羞辱。

5:57 5分57秒日本人和中国人是同一阵营的盟军。然而，在那里，日本人却被视为优于中国人。

6:06 6分6秒当然，你可以说部分原因是日本人击败了中国人。但你可以看到，所有这些都是累积的，并且相互依存。

6:14 6分14秒 当时的目标是英国和法国，因为他们赢得了欧洲战争。是的。

6:21 6分21秒 还有第一次世界大战。所以美国并没有受到同样的对待，因为美国与中国的关系相对和平。

6:30 6分30秒所以现在，当人们谈到这个问题时，矛头指向了美国，因为美国现在是

6:376分37 世界上唯一一个把中国视为……你知道，他们不太……他们不太

6:446分44 文明，他们是……他们是……他们是暴君，他们的统治者是……他们的党是邪恶的，你知道所有这些词

6:526分52 西方媒体和美国政客等等都在使用这些词语，他们真正针对的是

7:017分1 这是深深的羞辱吗？很难评估，但从政治角度来看，这样描绘

7:097分9 美国人，因为美国人对他们做了他们认为完全不可接受的事情。嗯。

7:16 7分16 你知道，我很高兴你提到了日本人，以及那些领土是如何回归日本而不是中国的。

7:26 7分26 这表明，西方人对待欧洲人和美国人对待日本的态度更加

7:33 7分33 尊重，而且你知道，正如你所知，我们共同的朋友，哈佛学者埃兹拉•沃格尔说过：

7:41 7分41 几个世纪以来，拥有伟大文明和强大社会的中国一直占据着对日本的优势。

7:50 7分50 然而，当日本在正统复兴中意识到西方的挑战并进行改革以变得更加强大时，中国却没有

7:58 7分58 重视，正如我们所知，中国随后在1895年的甲午战争中被日本羞辱。为什么中国人没有注意到日本人正在觉醒、改革并变得越来越强大？

8:06 8分6 为什么他们没有注意到日本正在经历巨大的变革，而他们却在落后？

8:14 8分14 嗯，他们可能低估了日本人向西方学习的速度。

8:27 8分27 但他们自己也在向西方学习。他们也在努力建立海军。

8:31 8分31 他们也在努力重新训练军队，使其现代化，从西方购买现代武器等等。

8:37 8分37 他们没想到会输给日本人。嗯。

8:40 8分40 但坦白说，当他们在1894年至1895年输给日本时，问题在于日本人

8:48 8分48 无论如何，他们更擅长海洋。他们是一个海洋国家。并且向当时世界上最强大的海洋国家英国学习，

8:55 8分55 使他们非常优越。而当中国人请求英国帮助他们建立海军时，英国却拒绝了他们。

9:03 9分3 英国人认为，中国拥有一支强大的海军将威胁到他们的利益。嗯。

9:08 9分8 对日本来说，拥有一支强大的海军是可以接受的，因为日本只是一小群小岛，他们选择训练

9:15 9分15 日本人，但拒绝训练中国人。所以中国人不得不求助于法国，坦白说，相比之下，法国

9:23 9分23 海军和英国海军完全不一样。所以在某种程度上，有些人会开玩笑说，1894-1895年的中日战争是

9:33 9分33 一场英国海军与法国海军之间的战争，而法国海军输了。但这是暂且不谈的。

9:40 9分40 暂且不谈这一点，关键在于军事力量至关重要。

9:48 9分48 事实上，日本人击败了中国，几年后又击败了俄国。

9:53 9分53 俄国舰队出征，英国人做了什么？他们加入了英日同盟。是的。

9:59 9分59 他们与日本结盟，因为他们不想，你知道，监视日本。但与此同时，他们也尊重日本。

10:07 10分7 尤其是日本的军事和海军实力。因此，英国与日本的同盟使日本的地位与英国持平。

10:16 10分16 他们没有与其他任何亚洲国家结盟。其他国家都处于帝国的统治之下。

10:21 10分21 因此，鉴于这一点，日本人采取了行动他们认为自己不如西方文明人，不被视为值得尊重的文明人。

10:29 10分29秒而中国人却没有。在第一次世界大战中，日本人站在了英国一边，而英国是

10:36 10分36秒 盟军，他们在那场战争中从德国人手中夺取了山东。

10:41 10分41 中国人加入了盟军，但加入得稍晚一些，不过他们仍然期望在战争结束时至少能得到与日本同等的待遇。

10:50 10分50 中国人希望与日本平等，但在《朝中条约》中，他们没有得到平等待遇，因为日本是英国的盟友。

10:57 10分57 英国偏袒日本，而日本人坚持认为他们应该得到平等。他们夺取了德国对山东的控制权。

11:04 11分4 山东，他们理应拥有它，但令中国人震惊的是，这是一种羞辱。

11:11 11分11 对中国人来说，英国接受了这种说法，并将山东交给了德国，这是第一次真正的羞辱。

11:20 11分20 战争中断了，但还有一些其他早期的小事，我就不赘述了。所有这些都导致日本人摧毁了中国的朝贡体系。

11:28 11分28 他们夺取了中国的朝贡体系。朝鲜，但到那时他们实际上已经占领了台湾，事实上，在那之前，他们在第一次世界大战后就已经占领了台湾。

11:37 11分37第一次世界大战，他们战败后占领了朝鲜。他们在击败俄国人后进入了马努里亚。实际上，他们

11:45 11分45占领了马努里亚，马努里亚的一部分，马努里亚南部。所有这些都在第一次世界大战之前就已经建成了。

11:51 11分51然后在第一次世界大战之后，在凡尔赛条约签订之后，日本人进一步推进，最终占领了整个马努里亚。

11:59 11分59并最终建立了马努科王国。当然，所有这些都是……

12:06 12分6西方在国际联盟抗议，但无济于事。

12:10 12分10最终，日本人或多或少地得逞了。

12:13 12分钟13 所以我觉得这一切都非常屈辱。

12:18 12分钟18 最后，日本入侵中国，试图夺取越来越多的中国领土。

12:25 12分钟25 一次又一次地被日本人击败。可以说，这一切都是累积的。

12:33 12分钟33 在那之后，真的非常强烈的屈辱感。你知道，当……

12:40 12分钟40 当日本人，正如埃兹拉•沃格尔所说，传统上他们一直仰慕中国人，但随着……

12:48 12分钟48 日本人逐渐意识到他们比中国人越来越强大，你知道，正如你所说，他们在1895年击败了中国人，然后占领了越来越多的领土。

12:58 12分58秒 当时日本人对中国的态度是如何演变的？他们对中国的看法发生了显著变化吗？

13:09 13分9秒 我认为日本内部也存在很多分歧。当然，我指的是军方，他们鄙视中国军队，认为他们

13:17 13分17秒 极其无能、落后，他们的看法是对的。他们并没有错。嗯，对于很多日本学者来说，

13:25 13分25秒 他们仍然非常尊重中国文明。但在学者内部，他们之间存在分歧，因为出现了一个新的群体，

13:31 13分31秒 新一代的后现代学者，他们认为西方现代文明的标准

13:38 13分38秒 远优于中国传统文明。所以，尽管他们尊重传统的中国，

13:45 13分45 他们觉得中国已经腐败，因为输掉了许多战争而彻底衰弱了。在他们

13:53 13分53 输给蒙古人，输给满清人，输给日本人之后，他们觉得中国人没救了。

13:59 13分59 他们根本没有能力管理自己。所以，那群日本学者也开始瞧不起

14:06 14分6 中国文明，认为它真的已经过时了。

14:09 14分9 中国真的错过了机会，它被彻底抛弃了，当时日本有一些著名的知识分子

14:16 14分16 真司说，我们必须转向西方，忘记中国。福泽谕吉说，就忘了它吧。回归

14:24 14分24 西方。当然，当他说他孤身一人时，之后整整几代在西方学习的日本人……

14:33 14分33他们接受了这种观点，忘记了中华文明。那都是过去的事了，或许它曾帮助我们塑造了日本早期的……

14:41 14分41几个世纪以来的发展。但今天我们转向西方，变得和西方一样强大，甚至更强大。

14:48 14分48然后，他们培养了下一代日本人，他们说，我们为什么要允许西方在亚洲统治我们？

14:55 14分55亚洲应该团结起来，亚洲人应该团结起来，把西方赶出去。亚洲是亚洲人的亚洲。他们只是走得更远了。

15:03 15分3他们希望中国人也加入进来。

15:05 15分5一些中国人动摇了由此可见，说所有日本人都反日，所有中国人都反日，这种说法是不正确的。是的，一些中国人被一些中国人说服了。

15:13 15分13 被日本人说服，我们应该团结起来，共同构建一个更繁荣的东亚联盟。

15:21 15分21 以及王京的理念，他的一些同事实际上也同意了。

15:26 15分26 但有一小群反抗者，以张爱等人为首。就是这样。张爱之所以反抗，是因为他非常了解日本人。他曾在日本军方学习过。

15:36 15分36 是的。他知道他们实际上并不是在谈论驱逐西方。

15:40 15分40 驱逐西方是为了让他们接管。[笑声] 所以他明白这一点，因此他说我们不能允许这种情况发生。那不是真正的故事。

15:49 15分49 是的。

15:50 15分50 所以他坚持战斗到底，这就是他们与共产党人走到一起的原因。他们当时正在进行一场内战。是的。

15:57 15分57 但他们决定搁置分歧，因为从长远来看，这对我们来说是一个更大的威胁，他们成功地联合起来了。

16:05 16分5 是的。正如你所知，刚谷，这门课程的重点是美中关系，我们必须回答这个问题：

16:12 16分12基本上，美国在中国人所说的“百年屈辱”中扮演了什么角色？正如你所知，直到义和团运动之前，

16:21 16分21美军并没有真正在中国作战，但与此同时，美国坚持给予中国最惠国待遇，

16:28 16分28并参与了上海的租界等等。那么，中国历史学家在回顾“百年屈辱”时，是如何看待美国的角色的呢？

16:36 16分36因为与此同时，正如你所知，美国也非常慷慨，为

16:43 16分43中原大学的建立提供了资金。那么，您会如何描述本世纪中国人对美国人的态度？

16:52 16分52秒 羞辱？起初中国人对美国有很多保留意见，但最终我会说

17:00 17分钟 中国人认为向美国学习是与西方打交道的一种方式。

17:08 17分8秒 因为美国至少愿意教导他们，还有教会学校和大学。

17:14 17分14秒 当然，他们也在宣扬基督教，并试图让中国人皈依基督教，中国人并不特别喜欢。

17:21 17分21秒 但他们并不介意。美国也为他们提供了一些机会。学习资本主义，

17:29 17分29秒 企业家精神，所有现代经济发展的特征，这是一个非常成功的美国。美国的转型，经济转型

17:38 17分3819世纪末20世纪初的转型确实令人印象深刻。我的意思是，他们实现了伟大的经济增长。如果你

17:48 17分48想看看现代的例子，美国人就展现了这一点，中国人对此非常钦佩。当然，英国人和法国人

17:57 17分57他们礼貌等等，但他们对待中国人的方式却截然不同。他们没有给中国人提供任何东西，除了

18:03 18分3如果中国人在欧洲，在英国，或者在法国，他们绝对不可能取得成功。

18:11 18分11或者法国。但在美国，这是有可能的，尽管偶尔会出现种族歧视问题，与劳工

18:19 18分19工会等等有关，但富有的成功美国人很乐意与富有成功的中国人打交道。他们

18:25 在资本主义合作、协作等层面进行交易。

18:32 总的来说，他们很钦佩美国人。美国社会开放，相对自由，而且不太

18:40 对中国人有歧视。中国人确实在那里感受到了这一点。但中国人甚至无法去英国和法国。

18:47 而在美国，他们至少可以去那里，虽然待遇不太好。但总的来说，很多中国人从中受益。

18:54 美国人邀请并向成千上万的中国学生开放，从

19:02 很早就开始了，当时几乎没有中国人去英国或法国。

19:08 19分8 日本人对海军的贡献体现在军事层面，但就美国而言，则是教育方面的。是文化方面的。

19:16 19分16 某种程度上是文明方面的，美国人展现出的企业家精神非常吸引中国人。中国人对此感受复杂。

19:23 19分23 总的来说，我认为中国人直到1949年都对美国持非常积极的态度。

19:31 19分31 直到朝鲜战争爆发，然后政府当然采取了不同的路线。好吧，让我们以这种积极的态度结束吧。[笑声]

19:40 19分40 中国人对美国的态度相当积极，下周我们将讨论……

19:48 19分48 更多在当代，我们可以讨论中国人对美国人态度的转变。非常感谢王刚武教授的讨论。

19:58 19分58秒 你好。非常高兴欢迎你再次回到与王刚武教授的对话。正如你所知，

20:07 20分7秒 上周我们讨论了百年屈辱时期及其对中美关系的影响。今天，我们

20:16 20分16秒 将继续探讨百年屈辱之后的时期，涵盖从1949年中华人民共和国成立至今的时期。

20:22 20分22秒首先，我想请教王刚武教授：

20:30 20分30 关于美国和中国之间真正意义上的重大战争，

20:38 20分38 这场战争是1950年6月25日至1953年7月27日期间爆发的朝鲜战争。

20:47 20分47 那么（轻哼）王刚武教授，我要问你的第一个问题是，这场战争是否可以避免？这场战争对中美关系造成了哪些损害？

20:58 20分58 如果美国人明确表示他们不会让任何人占领韩国，换句话说，他们准备为韩国而战，那么这场战争或许是可以避免的。

21:07 21分7但是

21:15 21分15秒 显然，国务院的一些领导人对此含糊其辞，他们的防线实际上更多的是针对日本。

21:27 21分27秒 那是最终的底线，他们没有提及韩国。这误导了金成

21:36 21分36秒 和俄罗斯人，让他们相信有机会夺取韩国，而美国人却没有

21:44 21分44秒 准备冒着生命危险为韩国而战。

21:47 21分47秒 所以，俄罗斯人比中国人更在向金成施压。哦，不。中国人没有在向任何人施压。是的。是的。

21:53 21分53秒 我不会说俄罗斯人在施压，但当金成想要这样做时，俄罗斯人一直在关注

22:00秒 机会，并没有真正阻止他。斯大林没说你不能这么做。是的。

22:06 22分6秒 所以，但是当时斯大林的权力比现在大得多。斯大林不想公开表态，因为他不想与美国发生直接冲突。

22:15 22分15秒 因为美国在监视苏联。

22:20 22分20秒 嗯，我看到的信息是，当金蒙被接触时，

22:27 22分27秒 俄国人鼓励中国人进去，因为他们自己进不去。

22:34 22分34秒 我相信，密东非常谨慎地等待着，他们这样做是因为他们

22:41 22分41秒 担心如果金蒙在没有他们支持的情况下这样做，那么

22:49 22分49秒 那么，在俄国支持下，金正日统一朝鲜半岛可能会影响到他们，因为他们刚刚开始。

22:57 22分57秒 你知道，他们才刚刚赢得中国战争。

23:01 23分1秒 他们需要俄国提供各种各样的东西。他们需要俄国的帮助，但他们不需要的是边境出现麻烦。

23:11 23分11秒 所以我认为他们很难同意这件事。我相信他们辩论了很久。他们对此并不热衷。

23:19 23分19秒 他们并不热衷，而且无论如何他们也无法阻止金成。

23:22 23分22秒 他们做不到，他们做不到，金成不会听他们的。金成会听斯大林的。

23:27 23分27秒 哦，但是斯大林并没有阻止他。

23:30 23分30秒 所以当他发动战争时，中国人必须决定是否支持。

23:36 23分36秒 不支持他也会传递出不同的信息，并且会让金正恩非常敌视

23:43 23分43秒 此后对中国。所以他们考虑了各种利弊，经过激烈的辩论，他们决定参战。

23:50 23分50秒 但他们知道这将是一场代价惨重的战争，因为他们没有做好与世界上大多数现代化军队作战的准备，而这些军队是由……领导的。

23:59 23分59秒 但他们决定必须参战。

24:05 24分5秒 所以，当金成决定参战时，蒙国参战可能已不可避免。

24:12 24分12秒 但即便如此，正如我所说，他们经过了激烈的辩论，但最终还是决定参战，而美国并没有真正预料到这一点。

24:20 24分20秒 嗯。

24:21 24分21我认为他们有点震惊，麦克阿瑟非常愤怒，这也是他准备进军马努里亚的原因之一。

24:29 24分29接管马努里亚，甚至准备使用核武器，但他因此被解职，因为杜鲁门拒绝这样做。

24:38 24分38杜鲁门非常勇敢。没错。

24:40 24分40这确实是一个非常了不起的决定。

24:42 24分42是的。麦克阿瑟是一位非常受欢迎的将军，当他被解职并回到美国时，他受到了英雄般的欢迎。

24:51 24分51是的。

24:52 24分52所以杜鲁门确实做出了一个勇敢的决定。总之，杜鲁门和毛泽东在某些方面都做出了非常勇敢的决定，呃，参加那场战争，你知道

25:04 25分钟4 有趣的是，呃，毛泽东的个性多么强大……

25:11 25分钟11 你知道，而且众所周知，中国很幸运在20世纪至少有两位伟大的领导人，毛泽东和

25:20 25分钟20 邓小平，有趣的是，当西方学者讨论这两位领导人时，呃，他们通常对

25:29 25分钟29 毛泽东更加批判，并批评他犯下的几项灾难，包括大跃进和文化大革命。与此同时，他们也称赞邓

25:38 25分钟38 邓小平大幅减少了中国的贫困，并使中国成为一个经济强国。所以，如果你是……

25:44 25分钟 44 如果你让西方学者或西方观察家投票表决中国问题，他们会说邓小平比

25:53 25分钟 53 毛泽东更伟大。但是[嗤之以鼻]在中国，毛泽东被认为比邓小平伟大得多。你怎么解释这一点？

26:00 26分钟 为什么中国人如此崇敬毛泽东？我认为这其中有很大的区别。

26:07 26分钟 7 毛泽东是伟大的领袖。邓小平是我们认为他最忠实的拥护者之一，直到文化大革命时期。是的，他仍然是

26:15 26分钟 15 毛泽东的支持者，甚至不是直接的第二或第三号人物。他的地位稍低一些，但仍然是非常忠实的拥护者之一。

26:26 26分钟 26 所有成就包括统一中国、赢得内战、攻占库明坝

26:34 26分钟 34 在某种程度上，他对保护中国免受日本侵扰做出了重大贡献，尤其是在他祖籍所在的北方地区

26:42 26分钟 42 军队控制了所有的一切。正是这些成就让他能够带领共产党克服所有这些困难，最终取得胜利

26:50 26分钟 50 经历所有变革的周期

26:56 26分钟 56 一个饱受战争蹂躏、经济非常贫困的国家，以至于他们开始意识到这一点

27:05 27分钟 5 感受到毛泽东领导下所做的一切，所以他接手了一个支离破碎的国家

27:13 27分钟 13 把国家重新凝聚起来。这赋予了他们身份认同感和自豪感，以及一个充满希望的新中国。

27:20 27分钟 20 年轻人的抱负是巨大的。当然，他的伟大也是他巨大失败的原因。

27:28 27分钟 28 你可能会说，他失败正是因为他太伟大了，所以才会失败。他犯了一些错误，而且

27:35 27分钟 35 他犯的每一个错误都造成了严重的后果。是的。因为他太强大了。这是因为他太强大了。是的。是的。

27:43 27分钟 43 所以，但最终，他通过成功和胜利给中国带来的利益无疑是历史上的一个伟大时刻。

27:52 27分钟 52 当他说中国站起来的时候。与此相比，他简直一无是处。如果不是因为毛泽东奠定了基础，他不可能做到他所做的一切。

27:59 27分钟 59 如果不是因为毛泽东奠定了基础。我想中国人会这样看待这件事。他们说毛泽东在晚年犯了一些错误。

28:07 28分钟7 是啊，真可惜，你知道，如果他没活那么久，他的成就还会更大。

28:13 28分钟13 但最终，他取得的成就与他所做的一些收拾残局相比，绝对是惊人的。

28:23 28分钟23 嗯。

28:23 28分钟23 他收拾残局做得很好，干得不错。但事情也并非总是尽如人意。

28:30 28分钟30 邵逸夫也犯了很多错误。他过于放松，导致十年大屠杀，部分原因是他有些过于松懈。

28:41 28分钟41 在权力下放方面也有些松懈。所以后来他们不得不费尽心思地收紧政策。

28:48 28分钟48 党因为过快地转向资本主义而腐败，他说有些人必须先致富。

28:56 28分钟56 所有这些都误导了很多人，随之而来的是一些腐败。

29:04 29分钟4 甚至在德南之前，一直到上平，情况越来越糟，等等。

29:11 29分钟11 有些人会把这归咎于他没有预见到这一点，而且他过于放松，导致这种情况发生。

29:19 29分钟19 过早放松导致在他的成功下，一些事情发生了。所以上平的出现是必然的，而你

29:26 29分钟26 知道要进一步清理，做得最好。所以很难说，这取决于你在哪里，你说什么。

29:34 29分钟 34 强调你给予的。如果你想强调马东犯下的可怕错误，你可以说

29:41 29分钟 41 马东是一个彻底的失败者，把他变成了一个怪物，但中国人不是这么看的。你必须先看看他做了什么。嗯。

29:52 29分钟 52 所以这些错误很可惜，令人遗憾，但考虑到他最初取得的显著成就，或许可以原谅。

30:00 30分钟 是的。我想，如果没有像毛伊都那样意志坚定的人，情况可能就不同了。如果……，这个国家将很难团结起来，再次成为一个强大的国家。

30:11 30分钟 11 是的，钢铁般的意志。但更重要的是，他很狡猾。

30:14 30分钟 14 狡猾。他非常聪明。他利用他的年轻同事战胜了其他人。他是一位非常……

30:24 30分钟 24 一位技艺高超的政治和军事战略家。他制定战略，并以……

30:32 30分钟 32 各种方式夺取了权力。我的意思是，他在这方面并不简单或无辜。为了达到目的，他极其冷酷无情。

30:40 30分钟 40 他所做的一切都是以牺牲许多其他人的利益为代价的。但无论他最终出于何种原因做了什么，他都做出了所有正确的决定，这些决定成就了美国建国最初20年的巨大成功，从日本战争结束到文化大革命，可以说一直到大跃进。

他的成功远远超过失败，所以我认为人们仍然认为他值得

他应该被视为这一切的创始人。是的。

嗯，我的意思是，另一个承认毛雄是一位伟人的人是另一位伟大的

美国人，亨利•基辛格。 [笑声] 如您所知，亨利•基辛格于1971年7月对北京进行了一次出人意料的戏剧性访问。当时您40岁。

31:38 我相信这次访问一定给您留下了深刻的印象。我只是凭记忆问一下，您对这次访问有什么印象？

31:47 正如您所说，哇，这很不寻常，您当时的想法和印象是什么？您认为未来的历史学家会如何评价这次访问的意义？

31:55 毫无疑问，基辛格能够说服尼克松放他走，这是一个非凡的决定。

32:03 但就我个人而言，我的处境略有不同。

32:10 因为当时我在澳大利亚，所以我的看法略有不同。嗯。

32:16 32分钟16 换句话说，针对美国对华敌对立场的压力正在增加。

32:25 32分钟25 已经遭到大会绝大多数成员的抵制。

32:31 32分钟31 其次，我一直在阅读有关中苏分裂和乌苏里战役的资料。

32:39 32分钟39 从20世纪50年代末库什乔夫上台开始，比亚东就对库什乔夫非常不满。

32:47 32分钟47 一方面，他对库什乔夫对待斯大林的方式很不满意；另一方面，他对西方采取的更为和解的态度也很不满意。

32:56 32分钟56 他对库什乔夫非常怀疑，并且认为自己应该比库什乔夫享有更高的声誉。库什乔夫是谁？一个学生。

33:04 33分钟 4 是的。什么都没有。而他却和斯大林一样好。是的。

33:07 33分钟 7 即使不是更好，他也不敢这么说。

33:10 33分钟 10 但他是一位伟大的革命家，带领一个国家走向独立。你知道克里斯托夫做了什么吗？所以他鄙视库什乔夫。

33:19 33分钟 19 因此，中苏分裂早在20世纪50年代末就开始了。所以到了

33:25 33分钟 25 20世纪60年代，越来越明显的是，中国和俄罗斯彼此猜疑，

33:33 33分钟 33 不再信任彼此，日益增长的敌意使他们几乎不可能

33:41 33分钟 41 除了越南战争之外，在任何事情上进行合作。他们在越南战争中帮助越南。

33:48 33分钟 48 但除了越南战争之外，到20世纪60年代末，分裂已经变得非常明显。因此，当美国

33:55 33分钟 55 各国承认中国和美国无法阻止战争时，一直支持美国的澳大利亚开始改变主意。

34:02 34分钟 2 美国一直以来都支持战争，但澳大利亚却开始改变主意。

34:06 34分钟 6 因此，惠特拉姆实际上是以澳大利亚政府反对党领袖、工党领袖的身份访问中国的。

34:13 34分钟 13 工党领袖在基辛格抵达中国之前就访问过中国。哦，在那之前。士兵们。所以我碰巧

34:22 34分钟 22 当时在澳大利亚认识这些人，并且知道惠特拉姆的访华之行受到了政府的猛烈抨击。

34:30 34分钟 30 政府说你不能这样做。你们反对派是亲共的，所以惠特姆去了，几周后基辛格也去了。

34:41 34分钟41我明白了。所以，尽管基辛格的做法在我当时的澳大利亚立场上很引人注目，但惠特姆

34:48 34分钟48已经采取了行动，但基辛格的算计不同，他认为苏联分裂的时机是让

34:57 34分钟57中国脱离苏联的轨道，并鼓励中国人更加反苏联。正是在这种背景下，

35:06 35分钟6我并没有立即意识到这是一个转折点。是的。但是，回首往事，毫无疑问，

35:14 35分14 基辛格会应美国总统尼克松的要求前往中国，并安排总统访问中国，这真是令人惊叹。

35:23 35分23 整个政治格局的转变。是的。但这肯定表明，尼克松和基辛格，我认为这一点也得到了证实。

35:34 35分钟34 关先生，你知道，他们都是地缘政治方面非常敏锐的学生，而且可能在

35:41 35分钟41 单独上课。我记得李•库万先生曾经被问到，你认为谁是美国最伟大的

35:50 35分钟50 总统，他实际上说是理查德•尼克松。

35:53 35分钟53 中国人实际上会同意这一点。

35:54 35分钟54 中国人同意这一点。中国人对此的友好举动非常伟大。你还记得基辛格、尼克松和中国官员之间进行的任何讨论吗？

36:04 36分钟4 你还记得那个时期吗？

36:10 36分10嗯，我对这一切有点困惑，因为当时我非常详细地关注了

36:18 36分18之后尼克松的所有问题，以及所有关于他的录音带和水门事件的报道。

36:25 36分25所以，水门事件。因此，我对它的很多记忆都与所有细节交织在一起。一些相当邪恶的想法。是的。

36:33 36分33当时人们交流了一些想法。所以我必须承认，我对当时白宫的这种

36:42 36分42水门事件对我们大多数当时读过的人来说都是一个引人入胜的故事

36:51 36分51所以在某种程度上，这影响了我对尼克松的态度。但我对克里斯蒂安的钦佩从未停止。

36:59 36分钟 59 那真是令人瞩目。

37:00 37分钟 当然，他的背景截然不同，就他而言，我认为他受益于以下事实：

37:08 37分钟 8 他在美国大学里与顶尖的分析师们交往，这些人

37:15 37分钟 15 了解俄罗斯，并且认为中苏分裂意义重大，而且他对此深信不疑，因为还有一些人

37:23 37分钟 23 认为他们反正都是共产主义者。一群共产主义者不信任他们，但他和这群务实的分析师认为这是一个绝佳的机会

37:32 37分钟 32 瓦解这个联盟，因为这个联盟对我们构成威胁，但如果分裂，如果中国至少

37:40 37分钟 40 部分站在我们这边，至少远离苏联，这将使我们对俄罗斯人拥有巨大的影响力。我认为那部分也是他学术背景的一部分。

37:49 37分钟49学者们已经证明，这是一次严重的分裂。这不仅仅是同志之间的争吵。

37:58 37分钟58他们之间确实存在激烈的反对，我认为阅读这些资料非常重要。我认为基辛格

38:06 38分钟6因此受到鼓舞，对尼克松说，据我理解，他对尼克松说，这次分裂很严重。我们可以

38:13 38分钟13利用这一点。是的，我确信那次分裂也是毛雄和李嘉诚的关键原因，当然我们

38:23 38分23 必须提到，李嘉诚对基辛格和尼克松都非常欢迎，但同时，呃，你

38:31 38分31 你知道，有趣的是，中国人对西方一直有一种复杂的情感，你知道

38:39 38分39 呃，对西方抱有极大的钦佩，同时也认识到西方在

38:46 38分46 羞辱中国等等方面发挥了作用。所以，当你从更长远的角度来看待这个问题时，你会怎么想？

38:54 中国对西方文明的整体态度，嗯，我不知道这个问题是否公平。

39:02 当然，有一位非常了解西方历史的人是李承晚，你会如何描述像李承晚这样的人的态度？你知道，嗯……

39:11 他对西方的态度是什么？他会如何看待西方？他会如何看待西方的优势和劣势？

39:18 我对李承晚的理解是，他本质上是一个典型的官僚，这是他的本能使然。

39:26 为国家服务，忠诚而睿智地为统治者服务，嗯，这体现在他的成长经历和家庭背景中。

39:35 他的整个背景，他的家庭背景，都使他处于那种地位，这使他成为一个……最高授权

39:42 39分钟 42 在最佳混乱的背景下，呃，因为呃，与此同时，他去过

39:49 39分钟 49 西方。嗯，他属于那一代人，与年轻的五月四世代一起，他们知道西方

39:58 39分钟 58 毫无疑问，西方可以给中国带来一些东西，因为当时到处都在谈论科学和民主之类的口号

40:06 40分钟 6 几乎中国所有人都同意，这是中国成为现代化国家需要的两件事：科学和民主

40:14 40分钟 14 民主，两者都重要。我认为在那时，即使是共产党人也没有真正反对中国共产党

40:22 40分钟 22 反对这一点。他们接受了这是两大方向。他们只是对民主的定义不同。但他们接受了这些概念对中国现代化进程至关重要。

40:3340分钟33住宿安我认为他们没有疑问。他们摒弃了传统。他们一致认为传统辜负了我们。

40:39 40分钟39 我们过去两千年都很辉煌，但两千年太长了。而且他们的反应太慢了。（哼）

40:45 40分钟45 因此，我们现在处境艰难，必须迎头赶上，而科学和民主将是关键。我认为这一点在董事会上下都是如此。

40:54 40分钟54 除了少数老派保守人士之外，绝大多数中国人都会同意这一点。

41:02 41分钟2 我认为他们在这一点上一直保持一致。

41:06 41分钟6 他们在科学领域的成就已被证明。我们知道这一点，毫无疑问。他们在民主方面的成功与否尚存争议

41:13 41分13 因为他们对民主的定义是自由民主主义者无法接受的，自由民主主义者将其解读为

41:21 41分21 英美议会制选举、共和制、法兰西制度，这些才是

41:29 41分29 正确的民主方式，而中国人，你知道，我们重新诠释了马克思、列宁等人的思想，认为只要你关心

41:38 41分38 为了人民，你以人民的名义，为了人民的利益而做事，人民回应并同意，并且

41:45 41分45 喜欢你所做的，那就是民主，这更接近中国传统中仁政的皇帝理念。

41:53 41分钟 53 天子毕竟在那里，因为他是无情地提供福利、照顾人民的人。

42:00 42分钟 人民的福利，并最终帮助人民和平、幸福、繁荣、和谐。

42:10 42分钟 10 所以这是他作为天子的一部分责任。这更接近中国人通常期望他们的领导人。

42:18 42分钟 18 无论如何，民主问题在中国公众中引起了巨大的分歧，他们争论不休，

42:26 42分钟 26 他们自己也在争论他们到底需要什么。有些中国人更喜欢美国的英美制度，他们认为那种参与式的

42:35 42分钟 35 民主使人民能够直接和平地更换统治者，而无需互相残杀。

42:42 42分钟 42 这是一种更好的方式。而其他人则认为，只要不造成混乱、无政府状态和破坏，并且

42:51 42分51秒 持续不断的内部斗争等等，并且能够提供人民所需的东西。

42:59 42分59 他们太穷了，要帮助他们，照顾他们。所以他们把这放在了不同的优先位置，我认为这种优先位置

43:08 43分8 使他们越来越倾向于认为，中国传统的那种制度，现在已被现代化

43:16 43分16 中国共产党可能正是我们需要的，也是中国成功所需要的，而且今天已经证明或多或少是正确的。我想大多数中国人都会同意。

43:27 43分27 我认为我们做对了，否则我们将面临内战。我们将很难让所有人达成一致。有太多

43:34 43分34 不同的意见。你需要领导者，强有力的领导者，能够提供方向感和愿景。

43:42 43分钟 42 引领方向，并确保这一切以和平和谐的方式进行。

43:48 43分钟 48 大多数人都享受着这些好处，我们无需承担任何风险。

43:56 43分钟 56 上下波动，他们观察一些外部民主国家，这实际上在很多中国民众中证实了这一点。

44:03 44分钟 3 这可能不是中国需要的，但迄今为止，中国已经采取的措施实际上是有效的。那么，为什么不坚持下去呢？

44:12 44分钟 12 这样做符合我们的传统。它并没有违背我们任何传统的做事方式。

44:18 44分钟18 并且要有一批新的官员，一批新的官员来履行他们的职责，他们因其技能、奉献精神和绝对的忠诚而被选中。

44:27 44分钟27 忠诚地做好工作，只要他们不腐败，这可能是我们目前能做的最好的事情。

44:37 44分钟37 [嗤笑]

44:37 44分钟37 我直接快进到2020年，你不同意吗？在很多方面，当中国人看到他们如何应对新冠疫情时，

44:46 44分钟46 他们处理新冠疫情的方式要好得多，中国只有四五千人死亡，而美国现在已经超过30万人死亡。

44:55 44分钟55 这在某种程度上也有助于证实中国人的做法？毫无疑问，中国人正在……

45:03 45分钟 3 将此解读为证实他们一直以来倾向于相信的观点，即他们的制度运作得更好。

45:10 45分钟 10 当出现危机时，人们可以团结起来，共同分担解决问题的重担。

45:18 45分钟 18 一种团结一致、共同努力完成某事的感觉。而他们……他们感到……

45:26 45分钟 26 比以往任何时候都更加感受到，人们谈论如此之多的自由只会导致如此多的分歧。

45:34 45分钟 34 以及无法支持一个统一的或国家有目的的解决方式

45:41 45分钟 41 国家危机问题。所以我认为，中国人目前实际上几乎是在为他们所拥有的成就沾沾自喜，他们认为他们已经相比所有所谓的西方自由民主国家未能取得的成就。

现在可能是我们暂停第二周讨论的好时机，因为到了第三周，我们实际上会谈到美中关系中出现的一些困难，其中之一是当然是对他们政治制度的误解。非常感谢 Gangu 加入我们21 本课程第二周的讨论。谢谢。

 Summer Palace burning all the way to the loss to Japan even to the boxer uprising and the boxer indemnity all those of course they were all humiliating but they were humiliating to theqing dynasty for most Chinese who wanted to get rid of the manus，it was a good thing it shows that the munch are hopeless they didn't have also made many mistakes he went too far one way to relax and therefore he had a ten yes massacre with partly because things are had been a bit too lax.
We also a bit lax about decentralizing. So that later on they had a tremendous job pulling back tightening and the party got corrupted by too too quick a move towards capitalism when he said that some people must get rich first before others and so all these things misled a lot of people and some of the corruption that followed even even before tenan all the way down to shinping and became worse and worse and so on.

Hello. It gives me great pleasure to welcome you to the dialogue we are going to have today with Professor Wang Gang Buu of the National uh University of Singapore. Have a discussion of the topics and themes that we covered in week one uh of our course on how history is influencing the course of US China relations. and we're going to spend some time discussing uh the century of humiliation uh that we have covered in this course.

So, Gang Wu welcome uh to this discussion and I'm going to begin as I said to ask you a question about the century of humiliation which probably lasted from 1842 to 1949. It was clearly a searing experience for China and it left deep scars. Indeed, as recently as July 1st, 2017, President Shi President Xiinping said that the return of Hong Kong marked the end of the Chinese nation's hundred years of shame. And we know that many painful episodes occurred in this century of humiliation, the opium war, the sacking of the Summer Palace, the defeat by Japan in 1895, the betrayal after World War I on German territories in China. In your view, which of these events scarred China the most and why?

It depends, I suppose, when you are addressing the question and who you're talking about because today when you
2:282分钟28秒钟quote Xiinping, it is in the context of US China tensions and uh disagreements about
2:352分钟35秒钟various things and a sense of being threatened by the United States that that the Chinese feel. At other times uh
2:442分钟44秒钟it is just a general statement. It's not addressed to anybody.
2:482分钟48秒钟Right now it is addressed very much towards the how the Chinese feel about United States policy towards China.
2:562分钟56秒钟So it has a target but before that it was just a general statement.
3:003分钟Uh and then you ask how many people actually felt it. Well, it that varies a lot because uh when it happened in the
3:093分钟9秒钟1840s,60s summer palace burning all the way to the loss to Japan even to the boxer uprising
3:173分钟17秒钟and the boxer indemnity all those of course they were all humiliating but they were humiliating to theqing dynasty
3:253分钟25秒钟for most Chinese who wanted to get rid of the manus it was a good thing it shows that the manchus are hopeless they didn't have the they didn't have the interests of
3:343分钟34秒钟China at heart. They justified the rebellion against the Manchus that this these these people should be out and all
3:423分钟42秒钟those Mandarins, Chinese Mandarins who collaborated with Munchus were also to be blamed because they tried to support
3:493分钟49秒钟a failed enterprise and uh so the these foreigners showed that the Chinese were backward, hopeless
3:583分钟58秒钟and we are very poor because of poor governance and so on. So in a way all those events showed that it was time to
4:074分钟7秒钟get rid of the manus. So from th those people's point of view uh that might be humiliating to theqing
4:154分钟15秒钟dynasty but it didn't affect the Chinese people in the same way is a good thing because it justified what they were going to do
4:234分钟23秒钟after the munchers overthrown however and their efforts to restore a good relationship to with the west to try and get them to
4:314分钟31秒钟for example renegotiate the treaties to take away things like extraterality all the things which made the Chinese feel inferior
4:404分钟40秒钟and the way they the racism that was involved to treat the Chinese as somewhat barbarous and univilized. These
4:474分钟47秒钟were things were much more hurtful because in other words they continued after they got rid of theqing the west
4:554分钟55秒钟attitude towards the Chinese were you all got to be taught how to behave how to modernize yourself you're so backward and of course the Chinese were
5:035分钟3秒钟determined to catch up they tried to learn their science and the political institutions international law they were trying to but all that
5:115分钟11秒钟time they were treated like you just have to learn more you got to do better than that is really the the deep humiliation is to be treated.
5:195分钟19秒钟What time was that?
5:215分钟21秒钟Since from about the first world war, for example, the u the treaty of SI thing was openly
5:305分钟30秒钟internationally perceived humiliation of the Chinese when the Chinese had actually been allies of the
5:385分钟38秒钟West when the West defeated the the Germans, the German Empire at the time.
5:435分钟43秒钟And yet when it came to the treaty of Versailles, they get they allowed the territory of the the Germans had in Shandong to pass over to the Japanese.
5:535分钟53秒钟Now that is real humiliation.
5:575分钟57秒钟Japanese and Chinese were on the same side as the allies. And yet there the Japanese are treated as superior to the Chinese.
6:066分钟6秒钟That that of course you can say that was partly because the Japanese defeated the Chinese. But you can see all these are cumulatively and as and dependent who
6:146分钟14秒钟the target was at that time the target would have been Britain and France because they were the ones who were they won the war in Europe. Yes.
6:216分钟21秒钟And the first world war. So America was not in the in the not treated in the same way at all because America was relatively peaceful in the relations
6:306分钟30秒钟with China. So now when you when this is addressed today, it is now targeted at America because America is now the
6:376分钟37秒钟country the only country in the world that is treating China as come something you know they're just not quite they're not quite
6:446分钟44秒钟civilized they are they are uh they're tyrannical their ruler is their party is evil you know all these words that are
6:526分钟52秒钟being used in in the languages in western media and by the western American politicians and so on this they're really targeting
7:017分钟1秒钟Is it deep deep humiliation? I I it is hard to evaluate, but it is certainly politically necessary to portray the
7:097分钟9秒钟Americans in that way because the Americans are doing to them what they consider to be totally un unacceptable. Mhm.
7:167分钟16秒钟You know, I'm glad u you mentioned the Japanese uh and how the territories returned to Japan instead of China. It's
7:267分钟26秒钟a sort of indication that the uh westerners treated Europeans and Americans treated Japan with greater
7:337分钟33秒钟respect and at the time and you know uh as you know our our mutual friend Ezra Vogel the Harvard scholar has said that
7:417分钟41秒钟for centuries China with its great civilization and stronger societies had the upper hand v Japan.
7:507分钟50秒钟Yet where yet when Japan woke up to the western challenge in the Maji restoration and reformed itself to become stronger, China didn't pay
7:587分钟58秒钟attention and as we know was then humiliated by Japan in the 1895 SinoJapanese war. Why why didn't the
8:068分钟6秒钟Chinese pay attention to the fact that the Japanese were waking up reforming themselves becoming stronger? Why why
8:148分钟14秒钟they why when they sort of noticing that Japan was going through a great transformation while they were slipping behind?
8:228分钟22秒钟Well, they probably underestimated the speed at which the Japanese were learning from the west.
8:278分钟27秒钟But they were themselves learning from the west. They were also trying to build a navy.
8:318分钟31秒钟They were also trying to retrain the army, modernize them, buying modern weaponry from the west and so on.
8:378分钟37秒钟They didn't expect to lose to the Japanese. Mhm.
8:408分钟40秒钟But when they lost to Japan in 19 1894 to95, frankly, it's a question of the Japanese
8:488分钟48秒钟were more maritime anyway. They were a maritime nation. And learning from Britain, the greatest maritime nation in the world at the time,
8:558分钟55秒钟made them very superior. Whereas the Chinese turn when they asked the British to help them build a navy, the British turned them down.
9:039分钟3秒钟The British had decided for China to have a strong navy would be a threat to their interest. Mhm.
9:089分钟8秒钟For Japan to have a strong navy, it was all right because Japanese just a small group of little islands and they they chose to train the
9:159分钟15秒钟Japanese but refused to ch train the Chinese. So the Chinese had to turn to the French and frankly in comparison the French
9:239分钟23秒钟Navy is nothing nothing like the British Navy. And so in a way some people joke about it a little that the SinoJapanese war of 189495 was
9:339分钟33秒钟a battle between the the British Navy against the French Navy and the French Navy lost. But that's putting aside
9:409分钟40秒钟putting aside that part, the key part is that military power was everything
9:489分钟48秒钟that the fact the Japanese defeated China and a few years later defeated Russia.
9:539分钟53秒钟The Russian fleet went out and what did the British do? They the Anglo-Japanese alliance. Yeah.
9:599分钟59秒钟They allied with Japan because they didn't want to, you know, to keep an eye on Japan. But at the same time they respected Japan
10:0710分钟7秒钟Japanese military and naval power in particular. So the British alliance with Japan raised the Japanese to the same level as the British.
10:1610分钟16秒钟They had no alliance with any other Asian nation. The others all under the empire.
10:2110分钟21秒钟So given that thing the Japanese took upon themselves as being not equal to the west treated as civilized people worthy of respect
10:2910分钟29秒钟whereas the Chinese weren't. And in the first world war the Japanese took the side of the British who was the
10:3610分钟36秒钟allies and they took took the Shandong from the Germans in the course of that.
10:4110分钟41秒钟The Chinese joined the allies but pro a bit later but nevertheless expected at the end of the war to be treated at least the same
10:5010分钟50秒钟as Japan as equals but in the treaty of Asai they didn't because the Japanese were allies of the British
10:5710分钟57秒钟the British favored the Japanese and the Japanese insisted that they were they took the Germans the German control of a
11:0411分钟4秒钟Shandong they deserve to to have it and to this shock that's humiliation
11:1111分钟11秒钟to the Chinese that the British accepted that argument and handed it over to the Germans and that that was a real the first real
11:2011分钟20秒钟break but there was some other early little things but I won't go into the details but all that leading up to the fact that the Japanese had destroyed the
11:2811分钟28秒钟Chinese tributary system they took Korea and but by that time they had already taken in fact before that they had already taken Taiwan after the first
11:3711分钟37秒钟world war that the the first war that they lost they took over Korea They had entered into Manuria after defeating the Russians. They actually
11:4511分钟45秒钟took over Manuria, part of Manuria, the southern Manuria. All that was already built even before the first world war.
11:5111分钟51秒钟And then after during the after the first world war, after the treaty of Versailles, the Japanese pushed further ahead to take over Manuria as a whole
11:5911分钟59秒钟and eventually created the monarchy of Manuko. all that of course
12:0612分钟6秒钟and the West protesting in the League of Nations, but to no avail.
12:1012分钟10秒钟In the end, the the Japanese got their way more or less.
12:1312分钟13秒钟And so all that I think was genuinely humiliating.
12:1812分钟18秒钟And to end all that with the Japanese invasion of China to actually try to take Chinese ter more and more Chinese territory
12:2512分钟25秒钟and being defeated by the Japanese again and again. Now you can say the all that was was accumulative
12:3312分钟33秒钟really heavy heavy sense of humiliation after that. you know this uh when the
12:4012分钟40秒钟when the Japanese right uh as Ezra Vogel said traditionally used to look up to the Chinese progressively as the
12:4812分钟48秒钟Japanese could see that they were becoming stronger and stronger than the Chinese you know defeating them in 1895 as you said and then taking over more and more of the territory.
12:5812分钟58秒钟How what were the Japanese attitudes towards how were the Japanese attitudes towards the Chinese evolving around that time? Were their perceptions of China changing significantly?
13:0913分钟9秒钟I think there are a lot of differences within Japan itself. There were those of course I mean the military of course who despised the Chinese military as being
13:1713分钟17秒钟hopelessly incompetent and and backward and they were right. They were not wrong. Uh for a lot of Japanese scholars
13:2513分钟25秒钟they remain very respectful of Chinese civilization. But among the scholars, they were divided because a new group,
13:3113分钟31秒钟new generation of postmi scholars who saw the western uh standards of modern
13:3813分钟38秒钟civilization as far superior to what the traditional Chinese had to offer. So while they respected traditional China,
13:4513分钟45秒钟they felt that China had been corrupted, had been uh completely weakened by having lost many wars. They after they
13:5313分钟53秒钟lost to the Mongols, they lost to the Manchus, to the Japanese. The Chinese people are hopeless.
13:5913分钟59秒钟They are just not capable of running themselves. So they be that group of Japanese scholars too began to look down
14:0614分钟6秒钟on the civilization as being really passed it.
14:0914分钟9秒钟It really missed the boat and it's it's completely rejected and you had the famous some famous intellectuals in the
14:1614分钟16秒钟Maji Japan who then said we must turn to the west forget about China. Fuki Fukuzawa Fukuzawa just forget about it. Return to
14:2414分钟24秒钟the west. And of course when he said that he was alone but after that are the whole generations of those Japanese who studied in the west
14:3314分钟33秒钟went along with that that forget about Chinese civilization. That was all in the past that may have helped us shaped our early
14:4114分钟41秒钟centuries of development for Japan. But today we turn to the west and we become as strong as the west if not stronger.
14:4814分钟48秒钟And then they developed the next generation of Japanese who said that why should we allow the west to dominate us in the in Asia.
14:5514分钟55秒钟Asia should get together Asians get together and kick the west out. Asia for the Asians. It's just they moved even further.
15:0315分钟3秒钟And they wanted the Chinese to join in.
15:0515分钟5秒钟And some of the Chinese were tempted by that. So it's not true to say that all Japanese are anti-Japanese all Chinese were anti-Japanese. Yeah, Chinese were persuaded by some Chinese
15:1315分钟13秒钟were persuaded by the Japanese that we should all get together in the greater East Asia prosperity sphere
15:2115分钟21秒钟and the Wongjing way and some of his other colleagues actually went along with that.
15:2615分钟26秒钟But there was a small defanted group that led by Changai and so on. That's it. And Changai because he knew the Japanese very well. He had studied with the Japanese military.
15:3615分钟36秒钟Yeah. He knew that they were not really talking about chasing the the west out.
15:4015分钟40秒钟Chasing the west out so that they can take over. [laughter] So that is understanding and therefore he said we cannot allow that. That's that's not the real story.
15:4915分钟49秒钟Yes.
15:5015分钟50秒钟And so he insisted on fighting to the end and that is how they came together with the communists. They were fighting a civil war. Yes.
15:5715分钟57秒钟But they decided to put aside their differences because this is a greater threat to us in the long run and they combine successfully.
16:0516分钟5秒钟Yeah. As you know Gangu this course is uh focused on US China relations and we have to address the question as is what
16:1216分钟12秒钟basically was the role of the United States in this century of humiliation that the Chinese talk about and as you know until the boxer rebellion the
16:2116分钟21秒钟American troops didn't really fight uh in China but at the same time the US insisted on most favored nation
16:2816分钟28秒钟treatment and joined the settlements in Shanghai and so on so forth. So how is the US role regarded by Chinese
16:3616分钟36秒钟historians when they look at the century of emulation because at the same time as you know the US was also very generous and contributed money for the
16:4316分钟43秒钟establishment of Chinua University. So how would you how would you characterize uh Chinese attitude towards the Americans in this century of
16:5216分钟52秒钟humiliation? There were lots of reservations about the United States at the beginning, but eventually I would
17:0017分钟say the Chinese decided that learning from America was a way of dealing with the west
17:0817分钟8秒钟because America was willing to at least to teach them and the mission schools, the colleges.
17:1417分钟14秒钟Of course, they were also preaching Christianity and and generally trying to convert the Chinese, which they didn't particularly
17:2117分钟21秒钟like, but they didn't mind that. America provided also some opportunities for them. Learning about capitalism,
17:2917分钟29秒钟entrepreneurship, all the modern features of economic development and it was a very successful America. America's transformation, economic transformation
17:3817分钟38秒钟at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century was really most impressive. I mean they they are the the great uh economic growth. If you
17:4817分钟48秒钟want to look at examples in modern times the Americans showed that and the Chinese admired all that whereas of course for the British and the French
17:5717分钟57秒钟they were polite and so on but they really treated the Chinese. They offered no nothing to the Chinese really other
18:0318分钟3秒钟than they would Chinese would be absolutely impossible for the Chinese to succeed in in in in in Europe in England
18:1118分钟11秒钟or France. But in United States it was possible even though there were racist troubles every now and then with labor
18:1918分钟19秒钟unions and so but the rich successful Americans were quite happy to deal with rich and successful Chinese. They were
18:2518分钟25秒钟dealing at the at the level of capitalist cooperation, collaboration and so on.
18:3218分钟32秒钟And generally they they admired the Americans. Americans had a open society, relatively free and not uh not too
18:4018分钟40秒钟discriminatory to the Chinese. The Chinese did feel it there. But the Chinese couldn't even get to Britain and France.
18:4718分钟47秒钟Whereas in United States at least they got there, treated not so well. But on the whole, many many Chinese benefited from that.
18:5418分钟54秒钟And the students, the Americans invited and opened up itself to Chinese students by the thousands right from the
19:0219分钟2秒钟beginning very early where hardly any Chinese went to Britain or France.
19:0819分钟8秒钟Japanese did for the navy for naval thing at the military level but in where America was concerned it was educational. It was cultural
19:1619分钟16秒钟civilizational in a way and the entrepreneurship that the Americans showed appealed very much to the Chinese. The Chinese had very mixed
19:2319分钟23秒钟feelings and but on the whole I would say in balance the Chinese were very positive about America right up to 1949
19:3119分钟31秒钟up to the Korean war and then of course the government took a different line. Well, let's end on that positive note [laughter]
19:4019分钟40秒钟that how Chinese attitudes towards America were quite positive and then in next week uh we when we discuss to a
19:4819分钟48秒钟more contemporary uh era we can discuss about the transformation of Chinese uh attitudes towards the Americans. Thank you very much Gangu for this discussion.
19:5819分钟58秒钟Hello. It gives me great pleasure to welcome you back uh to the conversation with professor Wang Gang Wu. Uh as you
20:0720分钟7秒钟know last week we covered uh the period of the century of humiliation and its impact on US China relations. Today we
20:1620分钟16秒钟are going to move beyond the century of humiliation and cover the period from the establishment of the people's republic
20:2220分钟22秒钟of China in 1949 till today. And I'm going to begin uh by asking professor
20:3020分钟30秒钟Wang Gang Wu about the in a sense the the truly major war that uh the US and
20:3820分钟38秒钟Chinese forces fought against each other uh which was the Korean war from June 25th 1950 to July 27 1953.
20:4720分钟47秒钟So [snorts] the first question I'm going to ask you Gangu is um could this war have been avoided and what damage did this war do to US China relations?
20:5820分钟58秒钟It probably could have been avoided if the Americans had made it very clear that they were
21:0721分钟7秒钟not going to let anybody take South Korea and that in other words they were prepared to fight for South Korea. But
21:1521分钟15秒钟apparently some of the leaders in the state department had been bit vague about that that their defense line was really more about Japan.
21:2721分钟27秒钟That was the the ultimate line and they didn't say anything about South Korea. And that misled Kim Sunung
21:3621分钟36秒钟and the Russians to believe that there was an opportunity to to take South Korea that the Americans were not
21:4421分钟44秒钟prepared to stick out their necks out to fight for South.
21:4721分钟47秒钟So the Russians were pushing Kimsung more than the Chinese. Oh no. Chinese were not pushing anybody. Yes. Yes.
21:5321分钟53秒钟And the Russians, I wouldn't say was pushing, but when Kim Sunung wanted to do it, the Russians were looking at the
22:0022分钟opportunities and didn't actually stop him. Stalin didn't say you can't. Yeah.
22:0622分钟6秒钟So, but and at the time, Stalin was much more powerful than much more powerful. And Stalin did not want to come in the open because he didn't want to come in direct conflict
22:1522分钟15秒钟with the United States because the United States watching the Russians.
22:2022分钟20秒钟Uh so when Maong was approached the the information that I have seen is
22:2722分钟27秒钟that the Russians encouraged the Chinese to go in because they can't go in
22:3422分钟34秒钟and the Midong waited very carefully I believe and they did so because they
22:4122分钟41秒钟were afraid that if the if if Kimong did that without any support from them Then
22:4922分钟49秒钟then unification of Korea under Kimmel Sunsung backed by the Russians may also affect them where they they just started
22:5722分钟57秒钟you know they had only just won the war in China.
23:0123分钟1秒钟They were in need of all kinds of things from Russia. They needed Russian help but what they did not need is to have trouble on their borders.
23:1123分钟11秒钟So I think they had tremendous difficulty agreeing to this. I I I believe they debated a long time. They were not enthusiastic about
23:1923分钟19秒钟they were not enthusiastic and they couldn't stop Kimsung anyway.
23:2223分钟22秒钟They couldn't they couldn't have the Kimong wouldn't have listened to them. Kimong would have listened to Stalin.
23:2723分钟27秒钟Oh, but Stalin did not stop him.
23:3023分钟30秒钟So when he started the war, the Chinese had to decide whether to support or not support.
23:3623分钟36秒钟And not to have supported him would have would have also been a different message and would have put Kim very hostile
23:4323分钟43秒钟towards China thereafter. So there all kinds of consider cons considerations and after fierce debate they decided to go in
23:5023分钟50秒钟but they knew it was a terrible cost because they were not prepared for that kind of war against most modern army armed forces in the world led by the
23:5923分钟59秒钟United Nations or United States for the United Nations but they decided that they had to do it.
24:0524分钟5秒钟So by that by the time Kimsung decided to go to the war it was probably unavoidable that Mong
24:1224分钟12秒钟would would get in. But even then as I said they was fierced but madum did decide to go in and the United States didn't didn't really expect it.
24:2024分钟20秒钟Mhm.
24:2124分钟21秒钟I think they they were bit shocked and MacArthur was furious and one of the reasons why he was prepared to actually prepared to push into Manuria
24:2924分钟29秒钟to take over and in fact even prepared to use the nuclear weapons and and he was sacked for that because Truman refused to do it.
24:3824分钟38秒钟That was very brave of Truman. Right.
24:4024分钟40秒钟It was really quite a remarkable decision.
24:4224分钟42秒钟Yeah. and and Macarthur was he was a very popular general in in he was when he was sacked and he went back to America he was welcome as a great hero.
24:5124分钟51秒钟Yes.
24:5224分钟52秒钟So Truman took a brave decision definitely.
24:5624分钟56秒钟So anyway both Truman and and Mao in some ways took very brave decisions uh to fight in that war and you know the
25:0425分钟4秒钟the interesting thing is the uh is how what a strong personality Maoidong uh
25:1125分钟11秒钟was you know and and as we know China is fortunate to have at least two great leaders in the 20th century Maoong and
25:2025分钟20秒钟Deng Xiaoing and what's interesting is that when Western scholars discuss these two leaders uh they often are much more critical of
25:2925分钟29秒钟Mao Zong and criticize him for several disasters including the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. At the same time they also give Deng
25:3825分钟38秒钟Xiaoing credit for reducing poverty dramatically in China and making China a great economic power. So if you are if
25:4425分钟44秒钟you had a vote among western scholars and or western observers on China, they would say Dung is a greater leader than
25:5325分钟53秒钟Mao. But [snorts] within China, Mao is regarded as a much greater leader than Deng Xiaoing. How do you explain this?
26:0026分钟Why do the Chinese people rever Mao Zidong so much? I think there's a big difference.
26:0726分钟7秒钟Ma was the great leader. Ten Shiaing was up one of our thought one of his loyal supporters right up through the cultural revolution. Yes, he was still a
26:1526分钟15秒钟supporter of Madong and not even the not even the immediate number two or number three. He was a bit further down but still one of the very loyal supporters.
26:2626分钟26秒钟All the achievements unification of China, winning the civil war against the Kumin dam
26:3426分钟34秒钟in a way major contributions towards keeping China safe from Japan on the northern part where he where his root
26:4226分钟42秒钟army held held control. all these things that he was able to lead the communist party to victory through all those
26:5026分钟50秒钟difficulties and then to go through the whole cycle of change transforming
26:5626分钟56秒钟a very battle war country very economically poor to the point when they were beginning to make it their presence
27:0527分钟5秒钟felt in the world all that was done by Mao under his leadership so he picked up a broken country broken
27:1327分钟13秒钟country put it together It gave them sense of identity and pride and a new China with great hope. The
27:2027分钟20秒钟aspirations of young were tremendous. Of course, his greatness was also the cause of his great failures.
27:2827分钟28秒钟You might say the very fact that he failed was because he was so great that he failed. He made some mistakes and that
27:3527分钟35秒钟every mistake he's made he made had great consequences. Yeah. Because he was so powerful. This is because he's so powerful. Yeah. Yeah.
27:4327分钟43秒钟So, but in the end the benefits that he brought to China by by success and victory was definitely a great moment in history
27:5227分钟52秒钟when he said China had stood up. He was a good nothing compared to that then could not have done what he had done if not have
27:5927分钟59秒钟if not because Mao laid the foundation foundations. I think that's how the Chinese will see. They say mount made some mistakes at the end of his life.
28:0728分钟7秒钟Yeah, it's a pity, you know, and he would have even greater if he hadn't lived that long, so to speak.
28:1328分钟13秒钟But in the end, what he achieved was absolutely stupendous compared to which things was doing some repair job.
28:2328分钟23秒钟Mhm.
28:2328分钟23秒钟Cleaning up after the mess and did a very good job, fine job. But things was not always right either.
28:3028分钟30秒钟Shaing also made many mistakes. He went too far one way to relax and therefore he had a ten yes massacre was partly because things are being had been a bit too lax.
28:4128分钟41秒钟It was also a bit lax about decentralizing. So that later on they had a tremendous job pulling back
28:4828分钟48秒钟tightening and the party got corrupted by too too quick a move towards capitalism when he said that some people must get
28:5628分钟56秒钟rich first before others and so all these things misled a lot of people and some of the corruption that followed
29:0429分钟4秒钟even even before Tenan all the way down to Shiinping and became worse and worse and so on.
29:1129分钟11秒钟Some some people would blame that on that he had not foreseen that and he had allowed by being too relaxed too too
29:1929分钟19秒钟relaxed too early had allowed some of that to happen under his successes. So that shining ping had to come and you
29:2629分钟26秒钟know do clean up some more the best. So it's hard to it's it's depend on where you what you
29:3429分钟34秒钟emphasis you give give. If you want to emphasize the horrendous things that the mistakes that Madong make you can say
29:4129分钟41秒钟Madum was a absolute failure and and turn turn him into a monster but that's not how the Chinese people see it. It's you must look at what he did first. Mhm.
29:5229分钟52秒钟So the mistakes are pity, regrettable, but probably forgivable given the the remarkable achievements that he first.
30:0030分钟Yes. I guess if you didn't have someone with a kind of iron will of Maoidong, the country would have it difficult to pull the country together and make it one strong country again.
30:1130分钟11秒钟Yes, iron will. But more than that, it was cunning.
30:1430分钟14秒钟Cunning. He was very smart. He was he made use of he made use of his young colleagues won against the outplayed them against others. He he was a highly
30:2430分钟24秒钟skilled strategist both political and military strategist. He he he strategized and he seized power in
30:3230分钟32秒钟all sorts of ways. I mean he he was not a easy or innocent person in that. He was tremendously ruthless to achieve
30:4030分钟40秒钟what he did at the expense of a lot of other people. But whatever he did in the end for various reasons he made all the
30:4830分钟48秒钟right decisions for the great successes of the first 20 years of the from the end of this end of the war with Japan
30:5630分钟56秒钟all the way to the cultural revolution you can say up to the great leap forward I would say that
31:0431分钟4秒钟successes will far outnumber his failures so that I think people still say that he deserves
31:1131分钟11秒钟to be treated as the founder of of of it all. Yeah.
31:1631分钟16秒钟Well, I mean, uh the the other person who recognizes that uh Maoong was a great man uh was uh another great
31:2631分钟26秒钟American, Henry Kissinger. [laughter] And as you know, Henry Kissinger made a surprise dramatic visit to Beijing in July 1971. You were 40 years old then.
31:3831分钟38秒钟I'm sure this visit must have made an impression on you. And I'm just asking just from memory what what do you remember about this visit and uh what
31:4731分钟47秒钟were your thoughts and impressions as you said wow this is unusual and and how do you think future historians will assess the significance of this visit by
31:5531分钟55秒钟Kissinger there's no question about that being both a a remarkable decision that he could persuade Nixon
32:0332分钟3秒钟to let him go but but for myself I was in a slightly different
32:1032分钟10秒钟position to and saw it slightly differently because I happened to be in Australia at the time. Mhm.
32:1632分钟16秒钟And uh in other words, there was a a move pressure against the United States position of hostility against China was
32:2532分钟25秒钟already being pushed back by large majority of the members of the general assembly.
32:3132分钟31秒钟Secondly, I'd also been reading up about the Sinos Soviet split and the fighting in Usuri
32:3932分钟39秒钟from 19 late 1950s already onwards when Kushchev came in and Bjadon was extremely unhappy with
32:4732分钟47秒钟Kushchov the way he treated Stalin at the one hand but also his recon his more consiliatory voice with the west. He was
32:5632分钟56秒钟very suspicious of Kushchov and he also felt that he deserved a higher reputation than Kushcho. Who was Kushchov? School boy.
33:0433分钟4秒钟Yeah. Nothing. Whereas he was as good as Stalin. Yeah.
33:0733分钟7秒钟If not better, he wouldn't dare to claim that.
33:1033分钟10秒钟But he he was a great revolutionary who led a country to independence. You know what did Kristoff do? So he he he had contempt for Kushchov.
33:1933分钟19秒钟So the Sinos Soviet split had already begun in the late 1950s. So by the time
33:2533分钟25秒钟of 1960s it was be increasingly clear that China and Russia was suspicious of
33:3333分钟33秒钟one another, no longer trust each other and the growing hostility was making it almost impossible for them to
33:4133分钟41秒钟collaborate about anything except Vietnam. They were they were helping Vietnam in the Vietnam war.
33:4833分钟48秒钟But apart from the Vietnam war, the split was becoming very obvious by the late 1960s. So that when the United
33:5533分钟55秒钟Nations admitted China and United States couldn't stop it, Australia who had been supporting
34:0234分钟2秒钟America all along began to change their minds.
34:0634分钟6秒钟So Whitlam had actually gone to China as opposition leader of the Australian government, Labour
34:1334分钟13秒钟Party leader had gone to China before Kissinger arrived in Oh, before that. soldiers. So I happened to
34:2234分钟22秒钟know these people in Australia at the time and knew about Whitam's trip to which was hammered by the
34:3034分钟30秒钟government. The government said you can't do that. You the opposition is pro-communist and so so Whittam went and just a few weeks later Kissinger went.
34:4134分钟41秒钟I see. So although Kissinger's thing is remarkable in where I stood in Australia, Whittam
34:4834分钟48秒钟had already made the move but Kissinger's calculations are different is to calculate on the side of Soviet split that this is a time to to get the
34:5734分钟57秒钟Chinese away from the the Soviet orbit and encourage the Chinese to be even more anti-siet. So it was in that context
35:0635分钟6秒钟that I didn't quite immediately see that as the turning point. Yes. But but looking back there's no question the
35:1435分钟14秒钟fact that Kissinger would go at the behest of Nix the president of the United States and arranging for the president to visit China is amazing
35:2335分钟23秒钟transformation in the whole political scene. Yeah.
35:2635分钟26秒钟But it must have it showed that both uh Nixon and Kissinger uh and I think this is confirmed also by
35:3435分钟34秒钟Mr. Kwanu uh were very astute students of geopolitics you know and probably in
35:4135分钟41秒钟a class uh by themselves. I remember uh uh Mr. Lee Kuwan was once asked who do you consider to be the greatest American
35:5035分钟50秒钟president and he actually said Richard Nixon.
35:5335分钟53秒钟The Chinese actually will agree with that.
35:5435分钟54秒钟The Chinese agree with that. What what what was the Chinese great friend to that to Chinese was a great friendly act. What what do you remember about any of the discussions
36:0436分钟4秒钟that took place between Kissinger and Nixon and the Chinese dealers? What do you remember if anything about that period?
36:1036分钟10秒钟Well, I I'm a bit confused about all that because I went to at that point followed in great detail
36:1836分钟18秒钟all the problems with Nixon afterwards and all the reports about what was on his tape and Watergate.
36:2536分钟25秒钟So, Watergate. So that a lot of my memories about that got caught up with all the details. Some rather nefarious Yeah.
36:3336分钟33秒钟ideas were exchanged at that time. So I I must confess that I didn't have a very positive view of this kind of
36:4236分钟42秒钟machinations in the White House at that time and Watergate was a fascinating story for most of us who read read it at the
36:5136分钟51秒钟time. So that in a way colored my uh attitudes towards Nixon. But I admiration for Christian never stopped.
36:5936分钟59秒钟That was remarkable.
37:0037分钟But his of course his background is so different and and in his case I would say he benefited from the fact that he was
37:0837分钟8秒钟moving among the highest analysists in the in the American universities who
37:1537分钟15秒钟understood Russia and who saw the Sino Soviet split as been particularly significant and really believed it because there are some others who
37:2337分钟23秒钟believe they're communists anyway. all bunch of com don't trust them but he and this realistic group of analysts say this is a great opportunity
37:3237分钟32秒钟to break this up because that combination is a threat to us but divided and if China could be at least
37:4037分钟40秒钟partly on our side and at least away from the Soviets will give us a tremendous leverage over the Russians. I think that part was part of his academic
37:4937分钟49秒钟background too that scholars have done the work to show that this is a serious split. It isn't just quarreling among
37:5837分钟58秒钟comrades. They really were bitterly opposed to each other and that I think that reading is very important. And I think Kissinger
38:0638分钟6秒钟was emboldened by that to actually say to Nixon and as I understand to say to Nixon, this split is serious. We can
38:1338分钟13秒钟take advantage of this. Yeah, I I'm sure that that split was also the key reason uh why Maoong and Join Lie of course we
38:2338分钟23秒钟must mention Jo were very welcoming of both Kissinger and Nixon but at the same time uh you
38:3138分钟31秒钟know the what's interesting is that the the Chinese have always had a kind of mixed feelings about the West you know
38:3938分钟39秒钟uh regarding it with great admiration and at the same time also recognizing that the west played a role in
38:4638分钟46秒钟humiliating China and so on so forth. So how in you know as you look if you take a sort of a longer view here of uh
38:5438分钟54秒钟China's attitudes towards western civilization as a whole uh and I don't know whether this is a fair question I'm
39:0239分钟2秒钟sure one man who actually understood western history very well was Joan lie how would you characterize the attitudes of a man like Joe and lie you know uh
39:1139分钟11秒钟towards the west what did how would he regard it and how would he see his strengths and weaknesses
39:1839分钟18秒钟My understanding of Joe Nai was he was fundamentally a Mandarin by his instincts
39:2639分钟26秒钟serving his country, serving the whoever is a ruler loyally and intelligently uh would be his upbringing and his his
39:3539分钟35秒钟his whole background his family background would put him in that sort of position which makes him a top mandate
39:4239分钟42秒钟in in the best confusion uh context as uh at the same time he had been to the
39:4939分钟49秒钟west. Um he belongs to that generation together with a young May fourth generation who knew that the west has
39:5839分钟58秒钟something to offer China by absolutely no question and because the slogans like science and democracy which was thrown around at that time
40:0640分钟6秒钟everybody almost everybody in China agreed that these were the two things that China needed to be a modern country science and democracy
40:1440分钟14秒钟and democracy both both And I think at that point even the communists didn't really disagree with the chi Chinese communist party didn't
40:2240分钟22秒钟disagree with that. They they accepted that these were the two thrusts. They just define democracy differently. But they accepted that the concepts were vital to China's modernization process.
40:3340分钟33秒钟And I think they had no question. They rejected the traditions. They were agreed that the traditions had failed us.
40:3940分钟39秒钟We were wonderful in the past for 2,000 years but 2,000 years too long. and they were they were slow [snorts] to react.
40:4540分钟45秒钟Therefore, we are in this terrible position that we must catch up and science and democracy will be the the key. And I think that was right across
40:5440分钟54秒钟the board with the exception of some old generation people who are old conservatives. The vast majority of the Chinese people would go along with that
41:0241分钟2秒钟and I think they have been consistent about that.
41:0641分钟6秒钟Their success in sciences are proven. We we know that no question at all. Their success at democracy is in dispute
41:1341分钟13秒钟because they have defined democracy in a way which is unacceptable to the liberal democrats who have interpreted that to mean the
41:2141分钟21秒钟Anglo-American parliamentary system elections the republican Fran system these are the
41:2941分钟29秒钟proper way to do democracy whereas the Chinese have you know we've reinterpreted marks and lenin and so on to mean that as long as you're caring
41:3841分钟38秒钟for the people you're doing it in the name of the people for the sake of the people and the people respond and agree and
41:4541分钟45秒钟like what you do that is democracy and that is a little bit closer to a Chinese traditional idea of a caring emperor.
41:5341分钟53秒钟The son of heaven is after all there because he's immorally the person to provide the welfare caring for the
42:0042分钟welfare of the people and ultimately help making the people peaceful happy prosperous harmonious and
42:1042分钟10秒钟so that's part of his responsibility as a son of heaven. So that's little bit nearer to what the Chinese would normally expect their leaders to be
42:1842分钟18秒钟anyway. So the question that democracy however has caused tremendous drifts within the Chinese public arguing
42:2642分钟26秒钟among themselves precisely what they need. There are Chinese who would prefer the American the Anglo-American system believe that that way participatory
42:3542分钟35秒钟democracy enabling you to change your rulers by the people directly and peacefully without killing each
42:4242分钟42秒钟other that's a much better way. Whereas others feel provided it doesn't create chaos and anarchy and disruptions and
42:5142分钟51秒钟con continual fight internal fights and so on and provide what the people need.
42:5942分钟59秒钟They are so poor going to lift them care for them. So they they put a different priority on that and that priority I think has
43:0843分钟8秒钟led them more and more to say the the kind of system that the traditional Chinese had which is now modernized by
43:1643分钟16秒钟the Chinese Communist Party is probably what we need and this is what China needs to succeed and it's proven to be more or less right today. I would say most Chinese say yes.
43:2743分钟27秒钟I think we got it right because otherwise we'll have civil wars. We'll have tremendous difficulties get getting people all agreed. There's so many
43:3443分钟34秒钟different opinions. You need leaders, strong leaders who provide a sense of direction, a vision
43:4243分钟42秒钟to lead the way and then ensure that this is done peacefully and harmoniously
43:4843分钟48秒钟and everybody most people are enjoying the benefits of that and we don't take the risk of all this
43:5643分钟56秒钟up and down and they look at the some of the democracies outside has actually confirmed in many of the uh people in
44:0344分钟3秒钟China that that's probably not what we need in China, but what has been done in China has actually worked so far. So why not stick
44:1244分钟12秒钟with this? And this fits in with our tradition. It doesn't go against any of our traditional ways of doing things.
44:1844分钟18秒钟and to have a new class, new set of mandarins doing their job, selected for their skills and devotion and and and utter
44:2744分钟27秒钟loyalty to do the job provided they're not corrupt is probably the best uh for first the best thing we can do at the moment.
44:3744分钟37秒钟[snorts]
44:3744分钟37秒钟I'm just going to fast forward to 2020 and wouldn't you agree that COVID 19 in many ways when the Chinese see how how
44:4644分钟46秒钟much better they have handled COVID 19 where uh four or five,000 deaths and United States is now exceeding 300,000
44:5544分钟55秒钟deaths. Has that in some ways also helped to confirm the Chinese? There is no doubt that the Chinese are uh
45:0345分钟3秒钟interpreting that to confirm what they've been inclined to believe anyway and that is their system works better
45:1045分钟10秒钟when there's a crisis and that people can unite and can share the burden of trying to solve a problem together. A
45:1845分钟18秒钟sense of being brought together and united in their in their efforts to do something. Whereas uh they they feel
45:2645分钟26秒钟even more than ever that the kind of freedom that has been so much talked about only leads to so much disagreement
45:3445分钟34秒钟and inability to support a unified or national purposeful way of solving
45:4145分钟41秒钟national crisis problems. So I think this the Chinese at the moment are actually almost gloating at the at what they they have they think they have
45:4945分钟49秒钟achieved compared to what all the so-called western liberal democratic countries have failed to achieve.
45:5645分钟56秒钟This may be a good moment for us to uh pause our discussion on uh week two because when we come to week three, we
46:0546分钟5秒钟actually going to touch upon uh some of the difficulties that have arisen the US China relationship and one of them of
46:1346分钟13秒钟course being the misunderstandings about their political system. So thank you very much Gangu for joining us uh on
46:2146分钟21秒钟this discussions for week two of this course. Thank you.