马丁.雅克直言西方已经结束，主持人当场愣住尴尬陪笑！

黑白碎片 2026年5月9日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc1Qk6Yb-ZA

马丁.雅克的学术生涯紧紧围绕中国的崛起展开，他最重要的学术贡献，是构建了一套以文明、文化视角而非单纯从经济或地缘政治视角解读中国的理论体系。 

他在2009年出版的《当中国统治世界》这本书中预判“中国不会复制西方模式，而是会成为一个根据自身文明形态崛起的全球性大国”，并提出“文明国家”的理论框架，认为中国首先是一个“伪装成国家的文明”，其核心由独特的语言、文化、历史和种族意识构成。

这一理论为理解中国行为逻辑提供了新范式，并引发全球大讨论。在这一段谈话中，马丁雅克除了谈到中国独特的文明模式和精英治国，还对当今世界东升西降，中美竞争，台湾问题发表了自己的看法。

But in China, you know, if you look at the standing committee, quite a proportion of them were educated at
0:066秒钟Chingra University as engineers, as scientists. So, they know how things work. If you look at Xiinping's career,
0:1515秒钟you know, he's run you he started off running, I can't remember all the the stages, but in a small town and then
0:2323秒钟eventually in a province. So he's he's got 40 years experience or something um of knowing how to run things. I mean
0:3030秒钟what does K star uh uh know about running anything? Now in the communist party leadership
0:3838秒钟ever since Jang Zamid there had been a view that that that China just had a certain
0:4747秒钟period development like they were having before America tries to put a stop to it.
0:5454秒钟Yeah. Exactly. And that's of course what happened.
1:081分钟8秒钟Fore
1:271分钟27秒钟speech.
1:531分钟53秒钟Foreign
2:442分钟44秒钟What do you think? I mean, outside of the fact that there's this very rich nation traditionally, historically, um, that also has great ability, great
2:522分钟52秒钟skill, great belief in itself, but I mean, how did it turn itself around that much? How did it go from, you know, I mean, lifting 250 million people out of
3:013分钟1秒钟poverty, uh, highways and roads that are much better than anything in Europe, much faster trains that, you know, go
3:093分钟9秒钟out speeds that are almost as fast as airplanes. Um, huge I mean entire like factories the size of cities. I mean,
3:183分钟18秒钟not cities, but towns. I mean, this is just something that's a bit mindboggling like just, you know, what how did that happen? I know. It's the most
3:263分钟26秒钟extraordinary story. It really is. You c I think you couch it very well. What you just said actually I mean
3:343分钟34秒钟you if you go to China now I I I've said this for a long for a long time to when you go to China or if you go to
3:423分钟42秒钟China you'll never ever see the world in the same way again. Never. Because the western mind always has the west at the
3:513分钟51秒钟center of it. And you go to China and you realize that actually we're not the center of the world anymore. The center
3:583分钟58秒钟of the world is somewhere around here. I mean, China's modernity now is well in advance in my view of anything in the
4:074分钟7秒钟west. Anything but you know this extraordinary innovation across such a wide it's throwing up new countries all the time. you know it where we where
4:174分钟17秒钟there were none there are now you know larger and larger more and more companies with extraordinary capacities for innovation. So how did this happen?
4:264分钟26秒钟I mean you know I think one of the important things to understand about China is that well first of all it's got
4:354分钟35秒钟an extraordinary compet competent leadership. I mean it Chinese governance is hugely more advanced than what you
4:434分钟43秒钟get in America or what you get in Europe. They know how to run things. I mean they're not a bunch of lawyers who
4:504分钟50秒钟are running running the show is which is the kind of leaders we get here.
4:564分钟56秒钟We used to get lawyers. Now we get people who are just trying to get votes and do funny stuff and yeah but in China you know if you look
5:035分钟3秒钟at the standing committee quite a proportion of them were educated at Chingra University as engineers as
5:105分钟10秒钟scientists so they know how things work and the way the communist party works. I mean is a very organiz interesting organization which you must take
5:195分钟19秒钟seriously and not just you know wallow in a sea of prejudice against it because what happened before which we don't like or didn't like. If you look at
5:275分钟27秒钟Xiinping's career you know he's run you he started off running I can't remember all the the stages but in a small town
5:365分钟36秒钟and then eventually in a province. So he's he's got 40 years experience or something um of knowing how to run
5:445分钟44秒钟things. I mean what does karma uh uh know about running anything and so we've got this kind of system of
5:525分钟52秒钟governance here where you know we have pro we have allowed people to become the leaders that who are supposed to run the
6:016分钟1秒钟country and they don't have any experience of running running anything particularly so I think that that professionalization
6:086分钟8秒钟of of leadership and governance is very important to what's happened in in China I'm not going to argue for a moment that
6:166分钟16秒钟we should have the Chinese governance system here because it it's impossible. It's a totally different history.
6:246分钟24秒钟Totally different history. But we need to learn from them. That is very important. Learn the best things. But if you keep pushing it away and and being
6:326分钟32秒钟negative about it where you don't learn learn anything in that fashion. I think that um that another aspect of this
6:406分钟40秒钟process that you're talking about is that the innovative capacity of China over
6:506分钟50秒钟this historical period especially since 1978 and dong that innovative um impulse
6:596分钟59秒钟is not just you know the people who invent things or the people who run companies or the people who run the
7:057分钟5秒钟state. It's much deeper than that. Look, if your economy is growing at 10% a year
7:137分钟13秒钟from 1978 until 2012, it means the economy is doubling in size
7:217分钟21秒钟every 7 years. It means living standards have basically kept pace with it. The living standards are being transformed.
7:287分钟28秒钟So living standards are doubling every se seven years. And if you think of a family, think of the
7:367分钟36秒钟generational gaps between the grandparents, the parents and the kids.
7:417分钟41秒钟I mean they their experiences are are very different societies. Education, schools, hospitals, all of these
7:507分钟50秒钟institutions are being transformed in the same kind of way. So there's a kind of you know there's a there there's a
7:587分钟58秒钟comprehensive modernization taking place. Who's doing it? the people are doing it. The people are transformed by
8:078分钟7秒钟this process. They're not external to it. They're absolutely bound up in it.
8:128分钟12秒钟And so what you've got is a is a you you've got a a very basically a very
8:198分钟19秒钟educated and uh sophisticated population as a result of all these changes.
8:288分钟28秒钟It's not it's all happening over there outside the people. the people are have are have been transformed by if you look at the people who running the companies
8:368分钟36秒钟or even the state and so on they don't come from posh backgrounds there is an element of that but most of them you know have been transformed by this
8:458分钟45秒钟process and they become you know they become leaders and so on okay I mean when when you when you hear China being spoke about on on western
8:538分钟53秒钟channels or on western western media the the big thing is this is a one party state uh lack of freedom of expression no
9:019分钟1秒钟human rights or or less human rights. Um what is true about that and what is I wouldn't say untrue but what is what
9:099分钟9秒钟becomes untrue because it's not explained properly. I mean it it's very different from here.
9:169分钟16秒钟We've been brought up in such a different tradition. China's always been a one party system ever since 2,000
9:239分钟23秒钟years ago because the imperial age was essentially a one you know then it was the imperial regime which was the party
9:319分钟31秒钟if you like and so that's the tradition over 2,000 years is that I mean Frank uh Francis Fukia makes good point in one of
9:399分钟39秒钟his books he said I can't think of another country in the world where the tradition of governance
9:479分钟47秒钟displays is such a powerful continuity as it does in China. So it's what China is China's never going to be westernized
9:569分钟56秒钟in that that that same way as we are because it just 2,000 years is a hell of a long time to be acquiring trying tradition and practicing those
10:0510分钟5秒钟traditions and so on. So I think that so and but likewise the Chinese the Chinese don't expect other countries to be like
10:1310分钟13秒钟it. I mean it's not like the old Soviet Union. the Soviet Union that the Communist Party in Britain in 1935 produced a program called for a Soviet
10:2110分钟21秒钟Britain, you know, and and that was the mentality of the Soviet Union. But the Chinese aren't like that at all. The Chinese But they weren't like that 2,000 years
10:2910分钟29秒钟ago as well. I mean, they were not trying to impose their way and their values. Correct. Maybe they were trying to win victories and maybe they had imperial policies, but they weren't looking at the outsiders. No,
10:3710分钟37秒钟saying become like us. Like you will become a subordinate to our partners, but become yourself.
10:4210分钟42秒钟Yeah. I mean if you look at the I mean you a very good point. I mean if you go back to the the tributary system which
10:5010分钟50秒钟was the sort of if you like China's world system I within its region world equals a region then um it did not
10:5910分钟59秒钟interfere with the governance of the of the tribute states. I mean the only thing
11:0611分钟6秒钟the only requirement really it had was accept that um the emperor the Chinese
11:1311分钟13秒钟emperor was the son of heaven and Chinese culture Chinese thinking confucious and so on were you know the
11:2211分钟22秒钟great thinkers it didn't make any political requirements and that is political though it is political of course
11:2911分钟29秒钟I mean it's almost like it's almost like that that like like the son of heaven thing now I mean it's almost like that now because when I when I when I do
11:3611分钟36秒钟speak I spoke to a few Chinese people on the podcast one person in particular I forget his name now but but even when I hear their response in the media it's
11:4411分钟44秒钟also like they treat one China almost like that kind of thing it's like when you push back on Tibet it's like we fine with the Tibet as long as
11:5311分钟53秒钟and then you must they must believe in one China it's the same with you know so it's almost like you can do what you like except this
12:0112分钟1秒钟major big political thing and when you do that then you're fine True. They definitely got their red lines. China is not interested in regime
12:0912分钟9秒钟change. It has no it doesn't believe in it because I think China thinks of itself as the middle kingdom. That that
12:1712分钟17秒钟historically is how it saw itself. So no one could be like no nowhere could be like China because only China could be
12:2412分钟24秒钟like China. I mean it was a sense of uh achievement and in some senses superiority I think in the attitude and
12:3212分钟32秒钟to this day you know they don't want to uh interfere. I mean it won't be like the British and American tradition you
12:4012分钟40秒钟know Brit the colonial tradition and then the American tradition especially since 1945. I mean they're not interested in that. Very important to the Chinese is the economy and trading.
12:5112分钟51秒钟I mean this is you know what they're brilliant at historically over a very long period of time is that a very
12:5912分钟59秒钟powerful work uh work work tradition in China they're very hard workers the Chinese are you know US decline uh seems
13:0913分钟9秒钟to be occurring I think that's a that's it's a relative to every other I mean some would say no some would say the USA
13:1613分钟16秒钟is still really amazing it's got the seven biggest companies in the world the strongest military in the world. Donald Trump is uh is you know a manifestation
13:2513分钟25秒钟of that greatness because he just goes and kidnaps presidences and and other people will see the complete opposite.
13:3013分钟30秒钟They'll say that you know the economy is in decline. Its relative strength to the world is in decline. Its relative military strength of the world is in decline. You obviously I'm assuming take
13:3713分钟37秒钟the view that the US is in massively in decline and China has really eclipsed it or about to eclipse it in many ways. How is the world going to change in the next
13:4513分钟45秒钟20 30 years based on on you know the the rise of China and the decline of the US and and where do you see US power sort
13:5213分钟52秒钟of working itself out US China power working itself out in the future?
13:5713分钟57秒钟Well, I think that um talking about uh where things are now. I mean there's no question looking at the statistics and
14:0514分钟5秒钟so on um that relatively speaking China's been on the rise and the United States has been in decline and uh the
14:1414分钟14秒钟significance of Trump and the rise of Trump was that he gave voice to that
14:2114分钟21秒钟unease in American society. uh the conditions of many working-class Americans had been declining or or or
14:2914分钟29秒钟over quite a long time or or or stagnating. People were increasingly uh
14:3514分钟35秒钟frustrated by and let down by um the American presidencies.
14:4214分钟42秒钟So what Trump Trump was uh uh articulated
14:5114分钟51秒钟uh the the anger towards and fear of China which had not really been articulated
14:5814分钟58秒钟except in traditional ways in the US at that point and he's really in so doing
15:0515分钟5秒钟he's I think recreated or redefined the American political stage age in a very
15:1215分钟12秒钟profound way. So a number of points we might draw from that. First of all, America American democracy is under
15:2015分钟20秒钟significant challenge. I think Trump himself is a sort of neotocrat if you like the way he operates. I mean he's ruled essentially by edict and
15:2815分钟28秒钟completely bypass Congress. So America is changing in a very you know the way in which uh the government sent in ICE
15:3615分钟36秒钟people uh to uh essentially attack migrant communities or weaken them or
15:4515分钟45秒钟banish them from the country. And meanwhile, America has in a way with the whole tariff regime recognized the
15:5415分钟54秒钟weakness of the American economy as a competitive unit in the world and introduced tariffs as a means to try and readjust that situation.
16:0516分钟5秒钟I think that uh Trump marks globally a retreat in that he talks about the western hemisphere. Greater America is
16:1416分钟14秒钟greater America within the context of the western hemisphere. Greenland for example is talked about in in that
16:2216分钟22秒钟context. That's a significant retreat from the United States as the global hegamon because previously the question
16:3016分钟30秒钟was you know international order United States as the leader of the international order and so on. Now Trump is talking in hemispheric terms rather
16:3916分钟39秒钟than global terms. I think the other uh element of this is his attitude towards China.
16:4616分钟46秒钟for for Trump the real enemy is China but he has been unable I mean he he in the clashes he's had with China each
16:5516分钟55秒钟stage he's been forced to retreat in April and then more recently because the
17:0117分钟1秒钟rare metals threat and so on. Um China's too strong now for America. So Trump can't would like to do but can't do.
17:1217分钟12秒钟he'd like to roll back China in some way. And that's how it all started. I mean, I think when he came in in uh 2016, that's what he thought he could
17:2017分钟20秒钟do. And they can't do it. And they won't be able to do it because the situation, you know, the situation's getting worse all the time.
17:2817分钟28秒钟Worse for the Americans. Worse with with the Americans. Yeah.
17:3017分钟30秒钟Sorry. And China's getting stronger. I mean, and China just has China thinks strategically. I think they the Chinese
17:3917分钟39秒钟learned a lot from the first term. the first term. Um, they weren't really prepared for it. They'd never seen anyone like Trump before. They'd had the
17:4817分钟48秒钟American leaders they're dealing with ever since Nixon uh in 1972 had been relatively, you know, they've been part
17:5617分钟56秒钟of a certain liberal America, which we're familiar with. And then along comes Trump, who's a totally different kettle of fish, you know, someone we
18:0518分钟5秒钟haven't seen in modern times from as American leader. The Chinese were because they had cooperated America ever
18:1218分钟12秒钟since 1972. They they had a relatively benign view. I mean they knew it was competition and all that but they were they didn't think of America as the
18:2018分钟20秒钟enemy and they were grateful. They learned from America blah blah blah you know all the technology and so on. And now I think what hap well what happened
18:2818分钟28秒钟as they learned that America could not be trusted now in the communist party leadership
18:3718分钟37秒钟ever since Jang Zamid there had been a view that that that China just had a certain
18:4618分钟46秒钟period development like they were having before America tries to put a stop to it.
18:5318分钟53秒钟Yeah. Exactly. And that's of course what happened. But they when it actually happened, I don't think they were really
19:0019分钟prepared for it. But they realized now exactly that that America could couldn't
19:0719分钟7秒钟be trusted. And they prepared meticulously for the return of someone like Trump.
19:1419分钟14秒钟Actually, it was Trump 2.0.
19:1619分钟16秒钟And uh if you look at I mean one of the most interesting and and and and graphic examples is the Chinese just greatly
19:2419分钟24秒钟reduced their dependence on the American market. I mean between between 206
19:3119分钟31秒钟and 2024 the Chinese reduced the significance of Chinese exports to the Chinese American
19:4019分钟40秒钟market from I think it was 19 20% down to 13%. That's a big reduction in a very short space of time. So they were just
19:4819分钟48秒钟they they you know a self emphasis on self-dependence and so on. You know they were in in difficulties in the Biden period over chips and so on because of
19:5619分钟56秒钟China was sign well well behind America at that point American Netherlands and and Taiwan. The Chinese
20:0620分钟6秒钟knew which industries they had to develop, knew which components they needed to be able to uh compete in and
20:1320分钟13秒钟and now they're still behind in chips, but not very far behind. I mean actually Jason Hang you know from Nvidia is right
20:2220分钟22秒钟about he he's absolutely right that if you do what you're doing then you're just going to create China's just going to develop a very competitive and large
20:3220分钟32秒钟computer industry which will out compete us and that's what that's in the process of what's happening and AI um well China
20:3920分钟39秒钟was significantly behind but I don't think it is I think if you look reading the commentators at the moment in Financial Times and other places I mean
20:4720分钟47秒钟there's a general knew that probably China is um you know more or less on a par in some ways ahead. Remember last
20:5620分钟56秒钟January a year ago when Deep Seek Yep.
20:5820分钟58秒钟Yeah. Open source I mean open source is below they can't afford to to buy AI but
21:0721分钟7秒钟they can open eye open source well it enables all sorts of people to use it.
21:1221分钟12秒钟You see, Trump, in my view, I mean, I think the key here is that he's not strategic. And I think America, if they were really interested in a, you know,
21:1921分钟19秒钟in ensuring that China doesn't become a rival to them, they should have been much more smart about identifying that in about about 25 years ago.
21:2821分钟28秒钟Yeah.
21:2821分钟28秒钟Um, but they were they were they were caught up in a bunch of silly wars.
21:3221分钟32秒钟Silly wars which are very identitarian in the Middle East, in other parts. And their foreign policy, I just think I think they just underestimated China.
21:3921分钟39秒钟They were like these which is a racist view as well. These guys will never Yes, these guys will never actually compete with us until they they they
21:4621分钟46秒钟they suddenly had better better goods and everything else. But I think the other thing is that Trump's going about then trying to have this war on China,
21:5421分钟54秒钟but instead of isolating China, he's isolating the US. So he's not he's not trying to build strong alliances with Europe and other partners to say, "Hey,
22:0322分钟3秒钟we're in a problem here. There's this massive Chinese state civilization that's going to come and, you know, destroy us all." Not that that's true at
22:1022分钟10秒钟any stretch of the imagination, but he's or even, you know, or that's a threat to our our economic dominance. It's a threat to our cultural dominance. He's he's isolating the Europeans. He's
22:1922分钟19秒钟isolating by because he's, you know, he's fighting everyone. Yeah.
22:2222分钟22秒钟Right. Which is just it's just it's this it's it's a mixture of stupidity and bravado and it just it is bound to fail.
22:2922分钟29秒钟Right. But the thing is I'm guessing that that instinct will will self-correct at some point if not in Trump but in the US administration. And
22:3722分钟37秒钟and and if Europe has some and and they will have they do have a skin in the game then will so do you see some sort
22:4422分钟44秒钟of future in before we get to you know the final question which was how you know how is this going to change the whole world but do you see some for some
22:5222分钟52秒钟of future in maybe four years or 6 years or 10 years where the Europeans and and Americans and others who feel the threat
22:5922分钟59秒钟from China China's dominance either economically or culturally or any other way um militarily for example um do you
23:0623分钟6秒钟see um working together in a more structive strategic way some for some future. The west. Yes, the west.
23:1323分钟13秒钟Uh I think the west is in big trouble. I think probably uh with Trump. I mean a lot of what you
23:1923分钟19秒钟said Trump agree. I mean America's definitely it's it's not just Trump.
23:2423分钟24秒钟Trump's reflecting a grand sort of opinion in the United States that you know which is a return to the past
23:3123分钟31秒钟really. America on its own. You know I mean prior to the first world war America wouldn't have been bound up with all these international organizations
23:3923分钟39秒钟and all that kind of thing. Yeah, but it also just wasn't the same country that it was. I mean, it was a rising power, etc., but it wasn't it just wasn't what it you know, the rest of the world had colonies and America had itself.
23:4923分钟49秒钟Yeah. It was America alone and and this is what, you know, Trump Trump believes. This is what Trump believes.
23:5723分钟57秒钟He he believes everyone else is inferior. Uh, you know, if the Europeans won't do uh our bidding, then, you know, we'll kick them into touch and so on. I
24:0624分钟6秒钟mean, we don't know the answer to these questions cuz they lie in the future.
24:0824分钟8秒钟But I think that I think basically the West as we've known it is over that
24:1624分钟16秒钟well that idea of the Atlantic alliance and
24:2324分钟23秒钟so on that that is going to weaken I think.
24:2724分钟27秒钟So you don't think it will it will strengthen after like a initial weakening because they'll realize oh well it could do. That is a possibility.
24:3324分钟33秒钟I I I think we're in the the land of the unknown here because obviously there's going to be a lot of changes in Europe as well. I mean, we haven't really seen
24:4224分钟42秒钟Europe has just been sort of doing two things. Moving to the right or the rise of the far right um and on the one hand
24:5024分钟50秒钟and on the other hand trying to appease America and uh with Trump and that that that's been its preoccupation. Um and
24:5824分钟58秒钟then there are now strong voices. Well, we got to stand up to America. You know, we can't allow Greenland, etc., and all
25:0525分钟5秒钟that. Um, some made a mistake, you know, Europe made a mistake in not uh responding to the tariff threat a year
25:1225分钟12秒钟ago in the way that it should have done that from April 20 25 onwards. My
25:1925分钟19秒钟feeling is that it it would be very difficult to put that to get back together again. Then then there's another aspect to this which when you
25:2825分钟28秒钟talk about alliances it's not just America and Europe it's America and for
25:3325分钟33秒钟example South Korea bases Japan bases um
25:4025分钟40秒钟Taiwan I think in this situation Japan is a a problem
25:4725分钟47秒钟of its own in its own making but South Korea I think isn't going to go with America. It's true it can pivot. Yes.
25:5325分钟53秒钟Yeah. It's It's going to play it both ways, but it's probably going to lean more and more towards China.
26:0026分钟Yeah, even if even even unintentionally, but it will. Yeah, definitely.
26:0426分钟4秒钟Taiwan Taiwan is going to become part of China, you know. I think that is absolutely inevitable. Um,
26:1226分钟12秒钟do you mean like like in a you know, you know, more soft way or do you mean in a hard way?
26:1626分钟16秒钟I think I think that China's shown enormous patience. There's a quote in Kissinger's we got call on China where
26:2226分钟22秒钟he quotes Mao uh and Mao is I think Mao said something like Taiwan it's just an island we can wait 100 years or
26:3126分钟31秒钟something like that very long time scale very and I think that the Chinese can be very patient because because Taiwan is
26:3926分钟39秒钟there is I mean there are signs of a new political movement anyway in Taiwan which is more sympathetic towards China the new leader of the KMT is someone
26:4826分钟48秒钟which is part waiting for 100 years that that will happen. Yeah. Yeah. But they'll keep the pressure up as you can see. And if I've never really gone with
26:5726分钟57秒钟the idea that she will in 2027 or the is going to invade Taiwan. I don't
27:0427分钟4秒钟I don't think it makes strategic sense for them. I think it makes the more strategic position is to wait.
27:0927分钟9秒钟Yeah, definitely. And now, you know, the world and and China's playing a really good China's really got it right now.
27:1627分钟16秒钟you know, it's it it doesn't react to all this stuff going on. It's just quiet self asssurance and reassurance that, you know, we're getting on with the job.
27:2627分钟26秒钟We're modernizing China. You know, we're supplying you with electric vehicles.
27:3027分钟30秒钟We're the global leader in in green technology. We're about to reduce our CO2 emissions massively over the next 20
27:3727分钟37秒钟years. We are the responsible responsible global leader. I think that's the way the Chinese. So I don't think they'd want to been invade Taiwan
27:4727分钟47秒钟at all. You know, I don't hear them talking about Taiwan in a threat. And I think the global orders, we've known it, who's grown up with it
27:5527分钟55秒钟since 1945, is broken and it won't be possible to put it together again because the Chinese actually are
28:0228分钟2秒钟supportive of the present global order with reforms. That's their position.
28:0728分钟7秒钟Whereas Trump is seems to be basically against it. The big problem the Europeans have got is basically
28:1428分钟14秒钟arrogance I think towards China. They thought they were superior, that they didn't believe in the rise of China. You know, they wouldn't be able to compete
28:2328分钟23秒钟with the top European firms, blah blah blah. And look what happens. The biggest most important industry in Europe is the
28:3128分钟31秒钟car industry. And the Chinese have taken them to clean the cleaners because they were smug, complacent, thought it could
28:3828分钟38秒钟never happen. So they're in, you know, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, all these firms are in big trouble. Who would have thought that? If you go back to 1978, 1980, the Germans were very far-sighted.
28:5128分钟51秒钟Volkswagen was very far-sighted. The the Chinese wanted to western investment, European investment. So I think Vauvaren
28:5928分钟59秒钟built his first plant in China in 2000 uh 1982. Um that's a hell of a long time ago because they wanted the investment.
29:0929分钟9秒钟They needed to learn. They needed the technology. Now what's happened?
29:1529分钟15秒钟It's the European firms that need the technology that need you know the knowhow of the Chinese firm. It's a
29:2329分钟23秒钟complete inversion in the relationship from being inferior. They're on top. Now how is Europe going to come to terms with all that? Now, by the way, the
29:3129分钟31秒钟other thing is in the longer run about America is because it this is too long to but at some point there'll be a
29:4029分钟40秒钟calculation in America that getting on with China is better and more profitable than falling out with him and having
29:4829分钟48秒钟these big arguments that at some point America will have to accept a fundamental fundamentally different relationship
29:5629分钟56秒钟with China just like Europe has got to do.